#205 - Hospitality Meets Kate Austen - Competitions and Breaking the Culinary Ceiling

Phil [00:00:00]:
And a massive hospitality meets. Welcome to Kate Austen.

Kate Austen [00:00:04]:
Hello.

Phil [00:00:05]:
How are you?

Kate Austen [00:00:06]:
I'm very well excited to be here.

Phil [00:00:08]:
Yeah, this is, it's actually so awesome to have you on one because as we were talking about, just before we turn the microphone on, there you are. The first person that I've had on this show that's, that's had exposure in a three star kitchen.

Kate Austen [00:00:19]:
I can't believe that. I'm, I'm thrilled. I'm very flattered.

Phil [00:00:22]:
Yeah. So anybody else out there listening, like Heston or anything like that? If you fancy it, I am available for chats.

Kate Austen [00:00:28]:
Gordon.

Phil [00:00:29]:
Yeah. And. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, him. He's not got a high profile, has he?

Kate Austen [00:00:33]:
No, no, exactly. He needs more air time.

Phil [00:00:35]:
Yeah, absolutely. How are you anyway? What's, what's new with you?

Kate Austen [00:00:39]:
Yeah, I'm good. I. I mean, obviously this year has been a bit mad.

Phil [00:00:44]:
Why is that, Kate?

Kate Austen [00:00:45]:
Well, everything sits great. British menu. So I, I was working in restaurants and then to do the show I joined a household kind of to manage it with my schedule and I actually just haven't left since then. I think on the show they portrayed me as quite a private chef and that actually, to be honest, is not really my background at all. This is my first full time job. But they've been super supportive, allowed me to do all the things on the side, so I just stayed them.

Phil [00:01:16]:
Yeah, that's wicked. It also highlights a great element to being a chef. Right. Is that actually there's so many different things you can get your head into.

Kate Austen [00:01:26]:
Yeah. And I think I was worried of that, of that I had always been restaurants and there's an ego thing that comes with it. You know, if you become a private chef to the restaurant lot, you've settled of something outside of it. And I kind of always felt that to a degree, however, this industry is not what it was. It's quite desperate. It's quite challenging at the moment. I mean, it's always been challenging. But I decided to pivot because I wanted different opportunities for my life that I couldn't necessarily see before.

Kate Austen [00:02:03]:
And I. Every chef, I am sure, starts out with a dream of having a restaurant. Nobody else will want that dream, but it just seems such a challenging climate to do that. And now. And I was like, I don't want to join that. This industry has been super challenging and those pressures I've managed to deal with, but I've not had to worry about rent and getting numbers in and people's salaries and food costs rising. Those haven't been my problems. To a degree of a business owner.

Kate Austen [00:02:35]:
And I didn't think I wanted to take them on.

Phil [00:02:37]:
Yeah, yeah, I can understand that because I mean, it's like, you know, it's widely reported, right, that it's, it's tough. It's a tough time we find ourselves in, in terms of running a business, especially a food focused business, because the price of everything has just gone nuts. It remains to be seen. We're actually in the week of the budget. Right. So let's see what happens.

Kate Austen [00:02:54]:
And I think it's sad though. I don't, I don't. The people ask. I don't know what happened to the industry. I think there will be a gap of either great restaurants or great chefs or something will happen because there's a limit to how much you can charge the customer. And I taught like a lot of my contacts and relationships are with the fine dining side of restaurants. And I know there are some people who will not totally agree with what I say, but fine dining is not in the same way that it was. It's not sexy in the way that it was.

Kate Austen [00:03:27]:
People don't want to go out for a 15 course meal anymore. They want to go out for your steak and chips and I mean, more refined than that. But like, look at Dorian. Dorian is so successful. But five years ago, that trend was probably not in the same place that it was now. And to produce that food, the 15 course tasting meal, you need like 20 chefs. But if you just have one guy cooking steaks and chickens and fish on a fire, you just need one. So from a business point of view, they also have to pivot.

Phil [00:04:02]:
Yeah, yeah. Indeed. Although what I will say at defense is that there is absolutely always a time and a place for a tasting menu, especially in my. On my palate.

Kate Austen [00:04:11]:
For sure there is. And I've always worked in that. Every restaurant I worked in was that. But I don't think that I would be as big a success if I opened a restaurant now with that. As if I was with something a bit more casual at the moment.

Phil [00:04:30]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kate Austen [00:04:31]:
It's like anything. It's like music, art, it moves.

Phil [00:04:33]:
And I would say that as well, like casual does not mean bad quality. Right. That's the casual can be exceptional quality as well.

Kate Austen [00:04:44]:
Totally.

Phil [00:04:45]:
Yeah. I've actually, I've had a guy on the pod a couple of weeks ago, his episodes not aired as we are recording this as of yet, but stumbled on his restaurant when I was on a holiday with my brother this year in Wellingborough restaurant Ember. Is the name of the restaurant. And I was blown away by the concept, the access that we got to the chef, therefore, the questions you could ask and the intrigue and the stuff you can learn about the process and all of that. And you're just seeing it all happen in front of your eyes. The theater element now is a big part of that casual experience. And he was absolutely nailing it. So, yeah, look out for that.

Kate Austen [00:05:23]:
Nice, Amber. I've not heard of it. Nice.

Phil [00:05:26]:
Yeah, it's a belter. And I love. You know, that's the other thing is that I. God, we just got straight into this, actually. Haven't we talked about you?

Kate Austen [00:05:32]:
I've run in heavy.

Phil [00:05:35]:
Is that there are. I suppose there are people out there who are still doing great things from a business perspective. And so I suppose the message we probably want to portray is that there are always going to be people who can still work within the parameters that life gives them, as it were. But it's just your willingness and desire to do that, I think, is probably stretched at certain points.

Kate Austen [00:05:56]:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Basically.

Phil [00:06:02]:
That'S your T shirt slogan for the day. Right, well, anyway, let's get into this. Let's get into you and your story. So take us all the way back to the very beginning of your. Not your life, but, like, when you started to think about what career going to kind of go into, how did hospitality come on that kind of radar?

Kate Austen [00:06:25]:
So it wasn't really obvious, to be honest. Like, I went to school and was absolutely middle of the road, really bang average, didn't stand out in anything, and that was fine. I wasn't, you know, that didn't bother me massively. I definitely felt the pressure of having older siblings who were quite successful and on a much more academic side. But I kind of recognized that that wasn't never going to be my path. So I never really kind of like, I was never going to be a lawyer. I was never going to be a doctor, to be honest. I didn't see that future myself at all.

Kate Austen [00:06:58]:
And I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And I went to university, as many other people do, and was like, I need to get a 2:1 so that if I come out and I'm in an interview with someone who doesn't, well, I'll get the job. You know, the like, old school way of what you believe.

Phil [00:07:14]:
Yeah.

Kate Austen [00:07:14]:
When I left uni and I was like, what am I going to do? Grew up in a family that loved food. My mom was a great Cook and mealtimes were important in the house. And I just thought, well, I've grown up around it. I've seen it. It doesn't seem impossible for me to be able to do. And I know it's a really hard environment, but I think I'm good under pressure and I think I'm tough in that sense. I've just never really shown it because school wasn't really my time to excel in that stuff. So I'm sure it didn't really seem obvious to anyone, really, but I thought cooking's, like, naive or very naive, I would say it's not that difficult.

Kate Austen [00:07:56]:
It's all the other bits. It's the pressure, it's the exhaustion, it's the environment. But, like, it can't be that difficult to make X, Y and Z. So naively. Went to. My parents live in Norfolk, and at that time there were two Michelin restaurants in Norfolk. One was Morstan hall, and one was for Pluto. There's now.

Kate Austen [00:08:16]:
There's now more than. I think there's four, maybe even five. And I went. Walked in and said, hey, will you give me a job? Yeah, exactly. I had no experience. I'd never. I didn't go to culinary school, nothing like that. I literally had made cakes and stuff at home, and it wasn't even.

Kate Austen [00:08:34]:
I cooked a lot at home. At home, I was the consumer. Like, mom made the food. I didn't cook it. Like, yeah, yeah, I. I didn't make bowls of pasta. Like, I didn't at home. I didn't cook.

Kate Austen [00:08:46]:
I bet I would make sweet things, right? They didn't seem that challenging to me. But, like, I didn't. No, I never was, like, rolling pasta or making sauces or stews or nothing. I'd done none of that.

Phil [00:08:59]:
This is amazing. Like, this is. Talk about bold, right? I mean, because you all stupid. Well, but there's. There's. There's absolutely. There's power in being stupid sometimes as well. We use the word naive on the show.

Phil [00:09:13]:
And actually, naivety is a wonderful trait to have when you're trying to get ahead. Because there's so many things whereby if you overthink it, then you talk yourself out of doing it right. So the naivety can help you just be bold. And the thing that I'm kind of struggling to equate in my head is that here's you that doesn't really have any experience, not. Not from a professional standpoint, but not even in kind of like your own kitchen. And you thought, well, let's just go Straight to the top. Let's just go to Michelin starred restaurants and see what they say.

Kate Austen [00:09:44]:
Well, do you know what, when you look at it like that, that's maybe something about cooking that is everyone kind of thinks you can do it, which is sometimes why it either gets undervalued because, because we all, it's all surrounded. We all do it every day to a greater or lesser degree. So it felt like less of a jump to do something because I'd always kind of seen it going on. I don't know, I just, I actually think it was probably a boarding school cloak of security that you left with. Naivety. And it was actually just a bit stupid. And I, I walked in and thought I could maybe tackle things that I potentially couldn't. But yeah, I, it turned out that I kind of could.

Kate Austen [00:10:26]:
I mean they gave me a job and there was, there was bats. It was all boys kitchen. They were all boys, they were younger bets on how long I'd last. Like they didn't. I walked in and one, there was a wine guy, I can't even remember his name. He was a bit of a nod, to be honest. And for the first month I worked there, he only like spoke at me as if I had like a plum in my voice. Daddy.

Kate Austen [00:10:52]:
That kind of stuff.

Phil [00:10:53]:
That's right.

Kate Austen [00:10:54]:
Great.

Phil [00:10:55]:
Welcome, welcome in to this wonderful cohesive team that we've created here.

Kate Austen [00:11:00]:
But I think it lit the fire and I was like, everyone thinks they can't do it. Everyone's just taken one look at me and been like, no chance. You know, I couldn't, I didn't have any skills but I didn't really come in with an ego. I was like very ready to learn and listen. And I thought, well, you, I'll end up better than the rest of you.

Phil [00:11:21]:
Yeah.

Kate Austen [00:11:21]:
And to be fair, lots of them have left to do very great things. So I'm not entirely sure of that. But.

Phil [00:11:26]:
Well, that doesn't matter, does it? That's just about lighting the fire within yourself to prove to these people that you're, that you're, you're absolutely not only a. Can cut it, but you're going to excel at this.

Kate Austen [00:11:37]:
Yeah.

Phil [00:11:37]:
Yeah. So that was your start. So you started there as a commie or.

Kate Austen [00:11:42]:
I started as a commie, yeah. 15 and a half grand salary.

Phil [00:11:47]:
Wow.

Kate Austen [00:11:47]:
For two and a half years wasn't, wasn't the best wage of them I've done. And we worked at very, very long hours. I was, I lived about half an hour away. We were probably in for 6 or 7. And I was home by like 2 in the morning. But I learned how to cook there. And I don't want anyone to think that that experience wasn't good for me or that, you know, okay, it was long hours and it was tough, but they taught me how to cook and they taught me a standard of what to expect and how to work. And that has been, in comparison to other restaurants I've worked in, that has been one of the highest.

Kate Austen [00:12:27]:
And I became friends with them all and they taught me friendship. And we did have a nice relationship once. I'd kind of earned my stripes.

Phil [00:12:37]:
Yeah, and you raise a good point as well, though, like, because. And actually, do you know what? I made a note of this. In fact, I just took a screen grab on your Instagram profile. Just bear with me one second while I find this, because I really, really loved this is what you said. You did a piece to women in the food industry and they ask you a question, finally, what do you know now that you wish you could have told your younger self when you were starting out in this business? And your response is exactly like. I mean, it kind of made me even more glad that you were coming on the podcast because I think this is a wonderful message. I'm just going to read it out verbatim. So bear with.

Phil [00:13:10]:
You do have to go through the rough bits to achieve the good bits, and they can last for longer than is comfortable and be extremely challenging. But everything moves, everything shifts. Eventually, sometimes you cannot quite see the point in what you're doing, especially if it is tough. But in hindsight you'll understand that it's some of the jigsaw pieces that put you where you are today. I mean, one, wonderfully worded. But two, just a great, great point for anybody who's listening, who's kind of, I suppose, maybe finds themselves in a position whereby they feel stuck or too challenged or stressed or a combination of all of these things, is that I've had a longstanding belief whereby a lot of the really good stuff happens when you crawl through the shit to get there in terms of what it teaches you, what you learn about yourself and all of that kind of stuff. So it was really interesting to hear you talk about that.

Kate Austen [00:14:00]:
I think that's exactly what I'm trying to say, to be honest, there is that it's like sometimes, especially I guess, with social media and what's portrayed at the minute, you see the best of everyone's lives. But make no mistake, the last 10 years of cooking have not been super great. And the reason that I've been able to enjoy highs, maybe being able to negotiate better circumstances for myself now, is because there were really long periods that were really rubbish. I was in jobs that I potentially didn't like. I was working with people who I didn't like. They didn't like me. And you've got to sometimes look at it differently and it's so much easier said in hindsight. And you can look back and think, thank God, you know, I'm here.

Kate Austen [00:14:39]:
And I did that. But I've had jobs that I didn't like and. But they've opened doors for me and they got me a seat at the table over other people simply because of the names. And at the time they felt rubbish. But I think you do have to go through them. And I don't want to slag off a younger generation or our generation, but if you look at the people who inspire you and who are successful in whatever industry they are, their career was not always really nice. And that doesn't mean you have to tolerate bad behavior and bad environments, but sometimes it's not going to go your way and you do have to just find a way to get through it. And I think that I was good at that.

Kate Austen [00:15:21]:
I was good at kind of putting my head down and really pushing through. And then I've been able to enjoy kind of coming out the other side of that.

Phil [00:15:31]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let's advance your story. So Morstan hall, we've obviously, we've had Galton on the show, so. And I actually think that he might have. I might have interviewed him when you were going through your great British menu journey. And I think he did comment.

Kate Austen [00:15:48]:
Did he let something out that he wasn't allowed to?

Phil [00:15:50]:
Oh, it's horrific. It was terrible. Yeah. No, no, he. And I think he said, oh, yeah, like, she's one of ours, you know, like, he was really like. Like a proud dad.

Kate Austen [00:15:59]:
I have a lot of love.

Phil [00:16:00]:
Really lovely to see.

Kate Austen [00:16:00]:
He was. He was very, very nice. So Galton was like the chef patron of the. Of Morstan, where I first worked. And he was just like a really, really nice guy who showed me that running a restaurant could be done by a really, really soft, gentle man, which is what he was. And he had a wonderful head chef called Greg Anderson, and the two of them together made a team that are the foundations of my cooking. 100%.

Phil [00:16:28]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So how long were you there for? In the end?

Kate Austen [00:16:31]:
I did two and a half years. I did every section. So I started on pastry which actually for me was brilliant because it taught me following a recipe and being regimented. And I sometimes looked over at the other kitchen where things are a bit more improvised and people kind of make made stuff, not always following a recipe, and then it caused problems and inconsistencies. Whereas with pastry, there was a recipe to follow and if it didn't work, something had gone wrong. And also, it's such a science and once you understand all the kind of fats and temperatures and all of that kind of stuff, it helps in the other parts of the kitchen. So I think it got me my confidence. And then I moved to the garnish section and then I finished on the meat and fish.

Kate Austen [00:17:16]:
And by then I felt like I was on to the next restaurant. And also I, you know, I was 20, whatever. I didn't really want to be in the depths of Norfolk. I wanted to at least be around some people rather than my parents the whole time.

Phil [00:17:32]:
I mean, that's fair.

Kate Austen [00:17:36]:
Yeah, I didn't want to, you know what they were. They were a lifesaver in those few years. But, yeah, I think I wanted to be around or in a city at least. So I moved to Marcus Warings in the Barclay, which was really different in, like a much bigger restaurant. We were doing so many more covers. You know, there was a massive prep kitchen downstairs, a massive service kitchen upstairs, a brigade of 30 chefs. There was about four sous chefs. It was just much on a much bigger scale.

Kate Austen [00:18:05]:
But I felt like Morstan, the standard was better and that was good and bad. And I was really nervous about changing restaurant because I'd only seen one system. We. I didn't know and I'd never done a la carte. We only did tasting menu. I was like, I don't know how any of those things run. And then I got there and I was like, hang on, maybe I do know a bit of what I'm doing and I can cook these kind of stuff. And so that gave me a bit of confidence, but just like, quietly.

Kate Austen [00:18:32]:
It wasn't really, you know, I didn't really shout and scream about anything, but it was quite a grueling kitchen. It was long hours, maybe. Yeah, I think I'm always. I'm. I'm bad at being satisfied. I'm always looking for more or for better or for something else, which is a blessing and a curse, to be honest. But I was then like Scandinavia, you know, they're doing things much smaller scales, super refined, better work, life, balance, better living environment. Why don't I try that? Like that will be the next step.

Phil [00:19:09]:
Is that literally kind of what went through your head? Right.

Kate Austen [00:19:14]:
It is my mentality always and it is a bit annoying. I sometimes need to try and sit and enjoy things, but I'm not very good at it. I just always want. I'm greedy. I just want more. So I was like, I'll go to Scandinavia. And when I went, NOMA was definitely having its moment. I didn't work at Noma, but it was.

Kate Austen [00:19:35]:
Scandinavia was super sexy at the time. Like it was the place to go. And it was all in the papers and the magazines and stuff. And all credit to Rene Giuseppe for putting Copenhagen on the map so much. So I thought, okay, I'll try that.

Phil [00:19:51]:
Well, I mean, why not?

Kate Austen [00:19:52]:
Right?

Phil [00:19:53]:
Was that back in the days of free movement, pre Brexit, when.

Kate Austen [00:20:00]:
It was very easy to go? Yes, and I went to aoc and AOC again is a two star in Copenhagen.

Phil [00:20:10]:
Was Marcus two stars at this point when you.

Kate Austen [00:20:13]:
Marcus was two stars, yeah. But I honestly was just like a totally different two star. It was. I mean, Scandinavia is different. I saw early kind of mentioned like how the Michelin is slightly different. For me it was very different in Scandinavia. I think they had a level that I just hadn't seen before. And it was much smaller restaurants, much slower pace.

Kate Austen [00:20:42]:
Like the Scandis work slightly differently. Those, those kitchens are international for sure. It's not like full of Scandinavian people, but it was just a bit calmer and way more controlled. And I thought, yeah, I like this. This is maybe a bit more me. I kind of did like the panic and the fire and the running around. But as a next step in my career, I thought that this could be it.

Phil [00:21:07]:
Well, I suppose you're now at the point where everything you do is consolidating your skillset. Right. So you've now got exposure in a two star restaurant, a pretty hectic place by all accounts. And then you're taking that into another two star environment, but a very different type of environment. So actually maybe it's one of those things whereby you feel like, well, kind of I've earned the right to be like in this environment now and to kind of. You're not having to worry about the franticism and the manicness now you can actually focus on the craft, as it were.

Kate Austen [00:21:40]:
Yeah, yeah. And I was excited because it's a whole different style of cooking that I didn't know. Like Morstan and Marcus were very classical British and with French techniques, whereas Scandinavia was pickling and preserving and some man came in the back Door with, like, bags of forage stuff. And then we pickled everything, and it was just ingredients that I'd not seen before. And it was. Yeah, it was exciting. And I was like, okay, this is the next challenge. Now I've got to get hold of.

Phil [00:22:09]:
This one and what level we are at this point.

Kate Austen [00:22:12]:
I was sous chef, then I was promoted to head chef, which was insane. I think it was a. You know, there is good luck and there is luck and time, good timing and everything. And I am the first to admit that it is for. It was for those things, for sure. I mean, I don't think I didn't earn my place, but as with anything, I think there is an element of that, and I do think that. And credit to the people who have promoted me is I don't think I've always been ready for the position, but they have potentially seen that I would get there. And I really, really rate that because I always did and I always worked really hard to get there.

Kate Austen [00:22:54]:
But maybe in the beginning I was a little bit paddling, like, manic.

Phil [00:23:01]:
But that in itself can be, I suppose, there you talk, actually, what you're talking again is about ego. And you've parked your ego here because in your mind, you're not ready, but you're going to be the benefactor of somebody who thinks that you are. And if you're not quite ready, then I'm assuming, therefore, they also supported you in terms of trying to get you there.

Kate Austen [00:23:20]:
Yeah. So my chef patron at AOC was a man called Soren. And I think he really identified the best to bring out of me that he let me run that restaurant, not on my own, but independently. He let me make mistakes. He never really yelled at me. I think he saw that there was no reason I didn't need to be yelled at to understand when things had gone wrong or when I'd got it wrong. And I really rate that because it made a massive part of my career and it influences you as a manager. Like, I moved forward and was like, that is how I will treat people and I will identify qualities that I think can bring the best out of them rather than this kind of a bit archaic way of running kitchens.

Phil [00:24:06]:
Yeah. Shouting people into submission.

Kate Austen [00:24:08]:
Yeah. I never. I never quite understood it. I always. I think I always just thought that when someone had got to that point, you've lost control and you haven't. You don't know how to get the best out of people. And I understand tempers become high, but I do think it is an ego thing. Like, there's no need to shout personal, horrible stuff at people.

Kate Austen [00:24:31]:
Why make them feel like an idiot? I would much rather. My experience was whenever someone congratulated me on cooking something, I was like, I'm going to work so hard to make it like that every time, rather than out of fear of getting things wrong. I always wanted to rule by respect. Never. By far.

Phil [00:24:50]:
Yeah. Here, here. I know I'm right behind you on that one for sure. And I think we are definitely getting better as a. As an industry at that. Still some places to go, but, you know, we're never going to be perfect. But I think there is a lot more focus on this as a style of leadership in the kitchen now, rather than. Because the other thing you have to consider as well, of course, is that a lot of the people who became exec chefs and chef Chef patrons and all of that, that's the way that they were managed.

Phil [00:25:17]:
Right. And that was the way that they were also handled. So it takes a lot of concerted effort from a new batch of people to reshape that and get people rethinking differently.

Kate Austen [00:25:28]:
Yeah. And I think that there has been a massive movement and people are a lot better at. And I don't hear the stories that are crazy anymore, to be honest. I think we have had a big move to make it a lot better.

Phil [00:25:40]:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So describe then, step up to Head Chef. You're obviously, you've got imposter syndrome rifling through your body at this point in time. How do you get past that, then, in terms of how did you know? How did. How did you, I suppose, get comfortable in your own skin that you can do this?

Kate Austen [00:25:58]:
I think, personally, I always like a challenge. I like to feel a little bit uncomfortable. I saw the bigger picture in what this job could do for me in the long term. I saw all the other aspects of the business that I could learn, because at that time I definitely wanted my own restaurant. And being Head Chef, you deal with loads more. Your problem is staff, you are worrying about costs. You do have higher people to answer to. And I thought, this is huge.

Kate Austen [00:26:27]:
I am going to learn a lot. And had I applied for this job from the UK previously, would I have got it? No. I was in the right place at the right time, so I'm going to take every opportunity that I can. But I did struggle with it a bit. And you have to make decisions and sometimes you do make the wrong decision. And in two star kitchens, people are, you know, competitive if they don't think you should have that job. Or they can be bulldogs at times. And I did have two boys who.

Kate Austen [00:26:59]:
They were a complete nightmare. Two South American boys, and they'd worked together before, and I could have never done anything right. But I. It was when I was sue Chef, they were. And they were just nasty to everyone. They chatted about everyone. They had opinion on everyone. So I thought, okay, I'm.

Kate Austen [00:27:19]:
I'm not headshot. I'm gonna take you on. Like, if you make everyone else, like, how I'll make yours. How. So I fought them the whole time.

Phil [00:27:26]:
And I threw an eye.

Kate Austen [00:27:28]:
Oh, totally. Like, sometimes it has to be the case. But then I got made head Chef, so then they were my problem. And then I had to deal with them, which wasn't exactly what I had planned in the first place. But they were both fired pretty, pretty soon.

Phil [00:27:45]:
How did you get past that? Ah, we just got rid of them.

Kate Austen [00:27:48]:
I just got rid of them. I was like, there's no place in this kitchen for you for sure. But they affected everyone else, and I'm sure other chefs. Oh, everyone in industry relate to it. Like, when you have people who are negative, it just spreads. And people are impressionable and they're young. And I was just like, no, you're like, I could send out plates on my head doing handstands, and it would never be good enough for you. So you just need to get out and find somewhere else.

Phil [00:28:16]:
Yeah. And the thing. The other, like, just from a really simplistic perspective, how can you possibly. Then you create an environment where people can do their best work. Right. If they're always just looking over their shoulder a little bit because they're worried about the next thing that's going to be launched their way, whatever that might be from. From, you know, these effectively toxic people.

Kate Austen [00:28:36]:
Yeah. Also, why does it matter what they think? Like, that's what's difficult is those people become a focus point on. People are worried about what they think, but we need to. Like, who cares what they think? We're worrying about the guests or we're running. Worrying about the restaurant. They just need to. They need to be gone. Yeah.

Kate Austen [00:28:52]:
They need to grow up and go somewhere else.

Phil [00:28:54]:
Absolutely. Now, did I read correctly, you were the youngest female two star head chef at this point in time?

Kate Austen [00:29:02]:
Yeah. So that was weird. I was only 25, so it was a bit of a strange. Yeah, it was like you. When it happened, I, like, came home and shut the door of the flat and I was like, what the hell? What on earth? But, yeah, I was so. I was so thankful of it. And it taught me loads, and I was happy there. There were challenges, but it was.

Kate Austen [00:29:28]:
It was an amazing experience, for sure.

Phil [00:29:30]:
Yeah. I'd imagine as well that, like, you know, kind of keeps you humble. And I think humility is a really great trait in leadership anyway. You're never getting too far ahead of yourself. You're kind of just a little bit in the moment and a little bit, you know, bedazzled by the moment that you find yourself. And, you know, how did I get here? But, my God, let's enjoy the ride.

Kate Austen [00:29:49]:
Yeah, I think if you can keep that, like, that feeling of where you do close the door and you're like, oh, my God, how am I here? I agree. It keeps the humidity about you, which is. I hope that I kept. Because I literally felt that the whole time.

Phil [00:30:02]:
Yeah. There was a. I worked for a guy on a cruise ship who saw something in me way ahead of what I saw in myself. And on a number of occasions, I got promoted and was thinking, what are you doing? Like, why are you promoting me into this position? But the one thing I always remember thinking was, I'm so lucky. I'm so lucky. And I used to put this thing out into the world. I was so lucky, so lucky. Until one day he turned around to me and said, you're not lucky.

Phil [00:30:31]:
Stop looking at as luck. If you start believing that it's all luck, then one day, something won't go your way, and you'll now feel that you're having bad luck because that's also an inevitable part of your journey. And I always remember that in that moment, thinking to myself, yeah, you got to. Yeah, you can be lucky, of course, but you've got to put yourself in that position in the first place to let the luck come to you.

Kate Austen [00:30:55]:
Yeah, I agree with that. And I am. I think.

Phil [00:30:58]:
So.

Kate Austen [00:30:59]:
We had this. I had this guy called Matt, a Scottish guy who I loved. He was so nice. He was so surprised. He was a great chef.

Phil [00:31:06]:
We're all brilliant. Oh, the Scots are all great.

Kate Austen [00:31:09]:
He was a joy to work with. And I remember I made him sous chef, and he. He just welled up, and I thought, that's what it's about. You know, it means so much to us, to some people. And I was so happy to kind of share that position with someone who I just thought was amazing and who was obviously totally blown away by the job that he saw. And I said, yes, this is why we do it. Yeah, I was very happy.

Phil [00:31:33]:
Nice one. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So how long were you in head chef Role.

Kate Austen [00:31:38]:
I was at AOC for a total of four, four and a half years, right? Yeah, Yeah. A big part of my career, for sure. And then I did really miss home. I think homesickness was the most challenging thing for me, just not having any friends or family out there. And I tried to keep work and my social life separate. But you worked so much and you worked such long hours that, I mean, when was I really going to meet other people? And I. After that amount of time, you know, everyone gets to that point in a job where you think I've kind of got the most out of it that I could. And I felt that and I.

Kate Austen [00:32:12]:
The fire burnt for the next adventure. But then Sweden, a vacancy came up at France and they contacted and said, there's a sous chef role going. And I was like, I can't turn down France. Like, that is. You know, it was fifth best and best in the world, I think, at that time. And they've contacted me for a job. It's just a detour to go via Sweden.

Phil [00:32:39]:
Very good.

Kate Austen [00:32:40]:
And thank God I did because Covid hit two, three months later. Like, I think I moved at Christmas or in. Yeah, December, but early of January. And then Covid hit in March. And if I'd have moved back to the uk, I don't know what the hell I would have done because I had no contacts in restaurants. I mean, I've been away for long enough that I didn't really have. I couldn't have suddenly just gone and worked with someone and all restaurants closed. But Sweden stayed open.

Kate Austen [00:33:08]:
We had no. We had no Covid in the whole world that stayed open. I went to fully wet restaurant. When I came back at the end of it and I had interviews, people were like, what you been doing for the last couple of years? I was like, working really, really hard. Really, really hard.

Phil [00:33:28]:
Yeah. What have you been doing? Oh, I'm really good at Call of Duty.

Kate Austen [00:33:30]:
Yeah. Banana bread. Jumping around the garden.

Phil [00:33:33]:
Yeah. Banging pans on a Thursday night or whatever it was that I used to do.

Kate Austen [00:33:37]:
Yeah, exactly. But I had none of that. I wasn't. I have had. I haven't had that experience that you all had.

Phil [00:33:42]:
Right.

Kate Austen [00:33:42]:
Which is also strange.

Phil [00:33:44]:
I definitely need to get more people from Sweden on the show then, because there's not something, you know, we all. I suppose you all have your own lived experience of stuff. Right. And we're. The UK are a little bit like an echo chamber now when you talk about COVID times. But that's really fascinating, actually, to kind of understand that there Was there was a country that effectively, for want of a better phrase, stuck two fingers up to Covid and went, all right, come on then, do your best. Or worse.

Kate Austen [00:34:09]:
Yeah. And like their economy didn't suffer in the way that others did, but from a restaurant point of view. So Francen was. There was like 20 members of staff. I'm gonna get that wrong. 15. 15, 20 chefs. I can't remember.

Kate Austen [00:34:22]:
And then we had stagiers, so basically interns, and they did all the prep, supervised by a CDP and a sous chef of France. But that was like 15 people. And then overnight they all went, because a lot of them were Italian and French or European, basically, and went back to their countries overnight. So suddenly we had lost all manpower. We didn't have anyone to make anything. And then obviously worried about the guests. And all that happened was because obviously the Swedes are really rich. They just like came every week.

Kate Austen [00:34:59]:
It became. There was one point where we had 20, 23 seats and every single person knew each other in the restaurant. And it was like we were trying to control this three star service. And it was completely chaotic. They were all kind of like jumping tables, moving around coffee drinks. But yeah, the restaurant, I mean, a credit to itself and the standard that it is. It was fully booked. Like, we never didn't have a low number.

Phil [00:35:24]:
Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So describe to me then a couple of things, I suppose. One, you were a head chef in your previous role and the perceived stepped back down into sous chef position. Was that a decision made? Because basically it's. It's France Inn and we have to. We've got to do this.

Kate Austen [00:35:42]:
Yeah, definitely. I took a huge pay cut compared to what I was on before. Yes, it absolutely was. But it was like bigger picture, you know, France End's amazing restaurant. This will open doors. I will learn a lot here. Food was unbelievable. When I came for my trial, I ate, which was a pretty good trial to have.

Kate Austen [00:36:00]:
And it was just the best food I've ever, ever tried.

Phil [00:36:03]:
I'm a great chef. You should give me a trial.

Kate Austen [00:36:05]:
I know. And then I had like a four hour meal.

Phil [00:36:09]:
Yeah.

Kate Austen [00:36:11]:
It was just. I was just blown away. It was absolutely delicious. And so I thought, you know, there's no choice in not taking this. I definitely was nervous and I found fronts and hard, I think. Was it full of the nicest people? No, to be honest. And I know that I don't, I don't. I don't want my interviews to real.

Kate Austen [00:36:34]:
I don't. I don't want to slag people off or places off. I don't think that's my intention with the industry. It's an industry that I love and I've worked in for a long time now. But I did find it tough. There's a very high standard and you come in as a sous chef and you've got to prove yourself to everyone because probably everyone wanted that position.

Phil [00:36:53]:
Yeah.

Kate Austen [00:36:54]:
And when it's. It's quite difficult to explain, but it is quite a complicated restaurant logistically, the way it's run in all sorts. Like, the menu is more challenging than any menu I've ever worked in. And the recipes are pretty intricate and long and detailed. And then you're working on different floors, people are brought up and lifts. The interaction with the guests is like nowhere else I've ever seen. The ability of the staff to provide environment that is. Feels so relaxed and so friendly and so natural, but a service that is like nowhere else I've seen was.

Kate Austen [00:37:34]:
Takes so much skill. And to suddenly come in and be a manager position and pick that up was hard. It was really hard, you know, and everyone you've got to prove yourself to. So I did. I did find that tough and I did struggle at times, for sure, but got through it.

Phil [00:37:52]:
Yeah. But I also. I admire your willingness to talk about that openly because, you know, and especially as well, you know, if you're sat in a job interview, as it were, and people ask you questions about this stuff, you know, you're. They always talk about, you know, you've got to be positive and all that kind of thing, but actually what you're being here is just authentic to your experience and, you know, but it didn't. What I also love is that you didn't just walk away from that. Like, you know, it's what we were talking about at the beginning. Like, there's learning to be done here and it's going to be tough and it's going to be challenging, but let's at least give it a chance to get you to get that learning in.

Kate Austen [00:38:28]:
Yeah, I am. I think it probably was the most challenging job. I do believe that not everything is also as linear as it seems. I was in that job so that I learned incredible recipes and techniques so that I left and I was able to get a job almost anywhere in the uk and I've earned my stripes in it. It didn't feel great, I didn't love it, but it wasn't as straightforward as I'm just there to be a sous chef. I think it had a different purpose and that purpose has Been very fulfilling afterwards. And at the time, it wasn't. It didn't feel great.

Phil [00:39:09]:
Yeah. But you have spoken about this as well on the form that I ask all guests to fill out before they come on. And it's really designed just to get you thinking about stuff. It's not designed for right or wrong answers or anything like that. But one of the things that I remember picking up one was, you know, your reason for being somewhere is not necessarily, as you say, it's as linear as it looks. It's not. You're not here to be sous chef specifically. That's going to play its part on your journey in some other way.

Phil [00:39:35]:
But also the fact that it was here or the previous place where you met a lifelong friend, which was really cool.

Kate Austen [00:39:43]:
When I was in Copenhagen, a friend said, oh, my friend Ellie's moving out to Copenhagen. She's never been there, she doesn't know anyone. We show her around. And she has turned out to be one of my bestest, bestest friends in the world. And I absolutely love her. And I do think it is like that. I think sometimes you need to spin things on the head. Like, I worked with this guy at Ramsey's, and he.

Kate Austen [00:40:06]:
No, no, sorry. Yes, he came to Ramsey's, but we worked together before for another company, actually, and he slagged it off and he didn't love it and he complained, and any opportunity he got, he said bad stuff about it. He met his wife there. I was like, you weren't there for the job. The world didn't put you there for the job, but you came away with your wife. So, like, it's not always as straightforward as it seems. And I think if you can spin it and see what else you've got from it, if it wasn't necessarily the original thing, then that's a healthy way to be. And my.

Kate Austen [00:40:42]:
My sister said to me, and I think, really, too. So she works in PR and she's an absolute powerhouse, runs her own company and is total inspiration. And she said. Which I agree with, and I think sometimes we can beat the drum on it a bit as women. But she was like, I'm not angry about the experiences. There were times that were really shit and rubbish and people were awful, but I'm not angry about them. They've put me in a position that I am today, and I kind of agree with that. And I'm not saying that the things that happened and the culture and some of the experiences I had were great and that I would wish someone.

Kate Austen [00:41:18]:
Other people, but I'm not that angry about it. Like, I. I went on a prestigious cooking show one. And it can't be. Not from some of the things that I've experienced. So, yeah, I'm not. I'm not really super angry, but my experience is, you know, I don't have those ones where people kind of bash me over the head with a frying pan. I was burned.

Kate Austen [00:41:39]:
All of it. I'm not. Those aren't them. But, yeah, I think I'm a bit more. It was part of the process.

Phil [00:41:45]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love that. I just think that's a really wonderful message for anyone, is that the moment that you find yourself in is not necessarily. Well, it's never going to be the end. Right. The things always move. They're all always in motion. So sometimes it's worth persevering through the tough stuff to get to the real reason why you're there.

Kate Austen [00:42:06]:
Yeah. And I think you learn a lot about yourself. I think those experiences definitely taught me, like, I. I think I have a good gut instinct and if I. If something's not right, I know it's not right. And I can. Now, I trust that. And I can either stick with it because I think something else is going to come out of it, or I can cut and run.

Kate Austen [00:42:26]:
And I'm like, that was the right thing to do. And I don't feel bad about doing it. It's like my dad said to me, he was like, once you quit your first job, like, that feeling's awful. You feel like a failure. You've quit your first job, you're walking away from it. He was like, once you've done that, you can do it because it doesn't feel as bad. And I think I agree with that. Now, if it's not right, not specifically a job, but just something.

Kate Austen [00:42:46]:
If something's not right, I can tell. Walk away, don't give a shit.

Phil [00:42:51]:
Absolutely. You've clearly got a great instinct because you said yes to coming on this show. So there we are.

Kate Austen [00:42:56]:
There we go.

Phil [00:42:59]:
Funny, you mentioned a prestigious competition there. That seems like a reasonable segue. Um, have we completed your journey, though, in terms of your career journey to that? Because we. You've. Through Sheffield, I worked for Ramsay.

Kate Austen [00:43:11]:
I squeezed in a quick job with Ramsay.

Phil [00:43:13]:
Right. As everyone should probably.

Kate Austen [00:43:15]:
Yeah, yeah, just.

Phil [00:43:16]:
And probably everyone has.

Kate Austen [00:43:18]:
Yeah, yeah. I have a lot of respect for him. I was there working in a different capacity, which was brilliant for me in that I came back from Sweden and I was like, look, I don't think you ever stop learning in kitchens. However, I didn't think that my cv, if I went and worked at another restaurant, like that was going to change any opportunities more than what I had at that minute. And I just didn't want to work till ridiculous hours in the morning and I wanted to earn more money. And unfortunately, when you move out of being head chefs of Michelin restaurants, there is a bit more money at the job. So I got a job working on development with, in the Ramsay team. And yeah, massive respect for him.

Kate Austen [00:44:01]:
I mean, I think he's. He's a three star chef, which I think some people forget. The Muggles forget. Like There is about 42 Michelin star, three Michelin star chefs. That number, fact check, give or take for you, is a really, really small amount of people. And he is one of them. And then the boys watch Frino and Gordon and then like everyone's mum has his cookbook. Like, what he has achieved as a business is remarkable.

Kate Austen [00:44:29]:
Yeah.

Phil [00:44:30]:
One of the few that's been able to transcend the industry. Yeah, basically.

Kate Austen [00:44:35]:
Yeah, it is quite a remarkable feat. But last year I decided to apply for the show and see the show wasn't part of the company, so I left. Yeah. And that, that's an example of my, like, I trusted my gut. They said, they said I had to wait another year before they would consider me going on the show. They'd had two previous employees that had been on. I think when you back it in a restaurant, it does cost a lot of money. I understand that side of it.

Kate Austen [00:45:07]:
No, no bad blood on that front. But I thought, no, this is my time. This. I feel like this is my time to go on the show, to compete. And I think more of it as if competition really rather than the show, like the TV side of it was. Wasn't the focus of it. It was like, this is a really big competition. Like, I'd worked for Marcus and, and Bolton.

Kate Austen [00:45:26]:
Bolton had won two courses. Marcus had done the jubilee. Like it had been in my world for a long, long time.

Phil [00:45:34]:
Yeah, I was, I remember talking to Galton about that and he, when he was regaling it to me because he was the first year, right. That they ever did this show.

Kate Austen [00:45:42]:
Yeah, I can't, I won't remember the details of that. I'm.

Phil [00:45:45]:
Yeah, no, yeah. What were you, like 5 years old or something like that? I would have been, absolutely. But that's how long this show has been around though, like. And you know, for anybody who's got a, like an iota of interest in food, I'd still think to this day, it's one of the greatest things to watch that TV has ever produced. And I will continue watching it for as long as they continue to make it. And I don't care what the brief is or anything like that. I just love watching you guys do your thing and come up with really creative solutions to the brief. And, you know, I just think it's.

Phil [00:46:22]:
It's just a wonderful, wonderful show. And it kind of warms. Warms me to my core to watch that show in action.

Kate Austen [00:46:28]:
Yeah, I think I felt the same and I was really inspired by it. Like, the chefs of amazing chefs of our country have all been on it.

Phil [00:46:36]:
Yeah.

Kate Austen [00:46:36]:
And to be honest, I applied in a complete way. Like, I was not satisfied in my job. I thought it was like a rain, rainy Monday and I was in a store cupboard, which was, which was the office. And I just thought, I don't think I'm happy in my job, but I need to change it. Maybe if I just send an email on this Monday, I will think to myself that I have been active about finding something else to do. Never thought anyone would reply. Within two minutes, someone reply being like, can you represent all of this kind of stuff? And I was like, oh, here we go. Real like, yeah, here we go.

Phil [00:47:15]:
Right. So that was literally how it happened. It was like very whimsical as opposed to strategically. Yeah, this is.

Kate Austen [00:47:23]:
No, it wasn't. No, it wasn't. It was. It came from a place of like, I didn't want to work in a restaurant in the same capacity. And I wasn't convinced on being a private chef at that time as a full time career. But I wanted opportunities opened and doors opened that weren't originally available to me. And the only way that I could do that was to go on a platform that would put me there if I did well. So it's.

Kate Austen [00:47:51]:
I mean, it's a big. Yeah, I think that's the other side of it is you put yourself on the line. Like, for the last 10 years, you've battled through kitchens. You've had all the people who weren't always your number one fan. And with that, there have been many, many people who are your number one. Japan. I'm not beating the Dom. And it's been like a miserable experience for me.

Kate Austen [00:48:08]:
There have been loads of really, really supportive people, but when it's going wrong on the show, you can't help but think, like, there's a lot of people that's gonna watch this like this, oh, God, please go right.

Phil [00:48:23]:
And some will be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. So damn. They don't know what they're talking about.

Kate Austen [00:48:30]:
Yeah, I know.

Phil [00:48:31]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're right, though. I mean, also, like, when you look back on the show's history, it's a properly who's who who has, you know, delivered a dish at the banquet. In some instances two dishes. I don't know how the hell that happens. Like. Yeah. And I was speaking to Adam handling last year around his experience, and he was a nat's hair away from having three courses at the banquet.

Phil [00:48:55]:
Right. I mean, you know, and he. I think he finished second and third in two other categories and you think. And he said he was grateful that he didn't get his main course there because there's no way that that alone he would have been able to produce for, you know, whatever.

Kate Austen [00:49:08]:
And we were in France in a farmer's strike. So, like, if anyone had, I know Adam was keen for. I mean, I was definitely Ben. Ben was in the. Ben had the starter and then it was me and him left for the maze. Yeah. If any of us had got to. It would have been an absolute disaster.

Phil [00:49:24]:
Yeah, yeah.

Kate Austen [00:49:25]:
Just the logistics of Paris, that would have been like a complete nightmare.

Phil [00:49:30]:
Yeah. Thank God we didn't just remind the world what the brief was this year.

Kate Austen [00:49:35]:
So it's always tied into a theme. And this year's theme was the Olympics, because the Olympics was in Paris.

Phil [00:49:41]:
Yeah. Okay. So you get the brief. Well, that's where I was going with this, to be honest, was what next? Like, you get the brief. Obviously it's Olympic themed. Right. So you can kind of, I suppose, take that anywhere you choose to in terms of it's relevance to the Olympics. But how do you take a brief like that, which is quite broad probably.

Phil [00:50:03]:
Yeah. And then really hone it down and narrow it down into not just, I suppose, a collection of really good dishes, but actually something probably that connects as a, you know, as a menu in some ways as well.

Kate Austen [00:50:16]:
So I'm a delegator for sure. And I. My whole family were very involved in it, particularly my brother and my dad. And I went to them and was like, look, I don't really know that much about the Olympics, to be honest. Like more than a standard 31 year old girl would know about the Olympics. We need to go and find every story out there, everything that's happened, every big moment in history, we will research. You come to me with the best stories that you have. And obviously I was doing it as well.

Kate Austen [00:50:47]:
And I can make the food, but I said, and I can make the food, I can twist it to make the food, but the stories aren't that coming to me that obviously. So we spent three weeks, we had a spreadsheet. Everyone put down any story, any moment in history, anything like that. I watched every single episode previously of GBM to study what worked, what made a difference, all of that kind of stuff. Then we landed on stories like my brother's wife came up with. My dessert was a high jump that was split in two. And that was all credit to my brother's wife. Her.

Kate Austen [00:51:23]:
She came up the story. She was actually a professional athlete, so that was also quite helpful. But, yeah, I delegated. And I actually think it was a lesson to me in. I was glad I always did that. I looked at some people in finals week and I think maybe they took on the challenge of everything themselves, and they didn't necessarily have as strong a story as others. And maybe if they had asked for more help than potentially they would have, it would have put them in a stronger position. But I was always confident that, oh, I just believe in other people and, like, they.

Kate Austen [00:51:59]:
They would help me. Like, the competition for me was so much about people who helped because I made everything from home. Like, I didn't. I wasn't working for Ramsey. I'd quit. So I had not. I had nothing like that. And the amount of people that moved heaven and earth to put me in a position that I would succeed, I will never, ever be able to find.

Kate Austen [00:52:19]:
Like, they just did so much. So it was a real team effort. I can't sit here and say that it was me alone at all. It was a lot of help.

Phil [00:52:26]:
Yeah. But that's really cool, though, because it is also, you know, reading between the lines. The message of that in itself is one that everybody should really kind of take on board. Right. Is that you can't get to the top in any form on your own. You need people to give you a leg up. You need people to you lean on, to support, get the support from and all of that kind of stuff. So it's a.

Phil [00:52:47]:
It's a great message in itself, I think.

Kate Austen [00:52:49]:
And I'm so blown away by how much people wanted to help for. For nothing, for seemingly nothing. Loads of people didn't know me that for number one, that was it. And then I couldn't offer them anything. There was nothing that I could give. But people were excited and wanted to be part of it. And I just thought, God, life's so stressful and everyone's so busy and people juggle so much, and all these people have just taken the time to kind of do something for me, and that felt very nice. I will always be humbled by that.

Kate Austen [00:53:19]:
Yeah.

Phil [00:53:20]:
Yeah, absolutely. So day one in the kitchen, cooking the dishes that you've come up with, what was that experience like? Because I suppose also you meet some competitors, right. And at this point, you are in competition zone.

Kate Austen [00:53:33]:
Yeah. And I'm competitive. Like, I want to win. I always want to win.

Phil [00:53:37]:
Right. You don't need to whisper that. It's like, just. And also, I think. I think people got that as well from.

Kate Austen [00:53:43]:
Yeah, I know. I know. I can't believe how, like, not subtle I am at that. I. Well, I started off not that great, so that was difficult, and that felt like. That did feel a bit like, classic me. Like, oh, for God's sake, why can't I just make it easy? Why couldn't I go in store? It might have to. I had.

Kate Austen [00:54:01]:
The first two days were really tough because I didn't do as well as I'd wanted on the first two, and then I knew I had to kind of claw myself back. But in that one, you're in, like, total. Like, it becomes very mental because maybe all my dishes are shit because no one's tried them, because I've just made them at home apart from my parents. So, like, maybe they're not that good. And, oh, my God, what am I doing? Do I know what I'm doing? But I always thought the show leans itself to classical cooking, and I had recognized that in kind of preparing for it before. And my last two dishes were very classical in style and technique. And so I was just like, I just have to deliver this the way that I think it is and kind of block out the last few days. But I would never want to do that first week of Regionals ever again.

Phil [00:54:47]:
Really.

Kate Austen [00:54:48]:
God. I won and I didn't have to go back. Yeah, I found it really tough.

Phil [00:54:52]:
Yeah, well, I suppose that would be the thing. Right. Had you not got a dish to the banquet, would you feel like you had unfinished business with the competition?

Kate Austen [00:54:59]:
Yeah. 100. But I just would have been so annoyed. I would have been really annoyed. I. Because I did find it a tough experience that I didn't want to have to go back and do it again. I do think going back a second time, you are at such an advantage compared to the people who've never been there before. You know how it goes.

Kate Austen [00:55:18]:
You know the drill. It is like, there is an advantage for coming back, for sure. But then you have the Pressure of your back your second time or your third time. And you've got to make. You don't want to be that person who goes three times and doesn't win. Or so from whatever perspective you're in, there's a lot of pressure on. And I do believe that with the advantages and disadvantages, everyone goes on that show and some people have advantages and we will have disadvantages, whatever they may be. And they slightly balance each other out.

Phil [00:55:49]:
Yeah. What was it like? Because you don't know ahead of time or do you know ahead of time? I don't know which judge you're going to get, which chef from the previous banquet. You just literally walk in and you're like, holy shit, it's Simon Rogan.

Kate Austen [00:56:02]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You had no idea. And I was like, oh, God, he's quite a good one.

Phil [00:56:08]:
Yeah. And a meticulous palate. Right. As well. So, you know, if you can get past him, that you're okay. We're, I think we're in a good show here.

Kate Austen [00:56:18]:
But he was really supportive and very wise words. I think it is, you know, you can watch it back and look at it. But at the time, to be honest, it was just like, head down and cook. Like, I wasn't really worrying about too much else that was going on and it was great to get his feedback, but other than that, it was just like a very serious day in the kitchen.

Phil [00:56:37]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, you're not the first person that said that.

Kate Austen [00:56:40]:
Actually.

Phil [00:56:40]:
I'm not even talking about great British menu. I had Orishand, had a conversation with him. He's just won national Chef of the Year this year with the Craft Guild of Chefs. I had a conversation with him and, you know, in the judges chamber, it's like a who's who of the industry that's in there from a chef perspective. And I asked him the question, you, how do you concentrate, like when you're kind of wide eyed and wobbly legged around these people? And he says, actually you kind of didn't really give them that much time of the day, like, because you are, you're just in the zone and you're already stretched anyway. So spending too much time with these guys, as much as you want to, you kind of just have to crack on and focus on your stuff and, you know, all of the stuff that you can control.

Kate Austen [00:57:24]:
Yeah. I think if I was also juggling worrying about them, worrying about how I was coming across on tv, worrying about being a certain character, whatever one element of that is going to not Be amazing. And it would most likely be the cooking. So, fortunately, I wasn't too. I could. I could just focus on the cooking.

Phil [00:57:44]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So two dishes down and. But you had more confidence in your next two dishes, so you made it. Obviously, it's not a spoiler to say that you made it through the. The regionals. What's it like, then, on the day when you all get together, you know? And one. This is another reason why I love this competition, is that you're all in competition for the same thing. You all want a dish at the banquet, but the willingness to help and support each other is also from the outside looking in.

Phil [00:58:13]:
Certainly, I don't know if it's the way they edit it or whether it's absolutely genuine, but it just looks like everybody's there to ensure that whoever you're coming up against, you want them to do the best version of what they've got.

Kate Austen [00:58:25]:
Yeah, I believe that. I felt that for sure. I think people had said, finals week is different, and I was like, shut up. I don't believe you. I was the first week of filming in regionals, which was technically meant I had the longest time to change bits and bobs, but it did mean I had to wait 11 weeks to come back, which mentally was quite tough because you're just waiting. Like, that was really difficult. And then everyone said, finals week is, you know, it's different. It's way more fun, it's way more relaxed.

Kate Austen [00:58:52]:
And they were right. To be honest, it wasn't way more relaxed in. You're not. You're not getting knocked out in the regionals. You're getting knocked out. So there's that fear that you could literally just go home. But I think Ben and I definitely, in the beginning, there was. We didn't know each other, but there was this moment and everyone was talking about their restaurants and their accolades, and we just kind of were like, it's pretty cool we're here.

Kate Austen [00:59:13]:
Like, I believe that would have worn off on me really quickly because I would have been like, well, now I want to win. But there was a small moment where. Yeah. Where I was like, this feels great. And then mentally, for me, I was in a really good headspace. And I was like, one. Courses one and two aren't my race, but I'm not going to win them. I just need to do better.

Kate Austen [00:59:37]:
And if I do better, then hopefully I look to the judges like, okay, she's taken on all our feedback. She's made some great changes. This is just going to be how the next two dishes are going to go. Which has her strong ones. And they did come back and say, you know, the dishes were better. And so I went into the main course feeling quietly confident, not confident, and I was going to win, but, like, that this dish was going to be good.

Phil [01:00:04]:
Well.

Kate Austen [01:00:04]:
And obviously executed it properly. Well. Yeah. Turned out right.

Phil [01:00:10]:
Yeah. Yeah, indeed. I always. I can't imagine what you guys must go through when you're all invited back into the judge's chamber. And. Yeah. And especially probably the last thing you want is for your name to come out first. Right.

Phil [01:00:25]:
As in.

Kate Austen [01:00:26]:
Yeah, last.

Phil [01:00:27]:
Yeah.

Kate Austen [01:00:28]:
You don't want to be. Yeah, exactly. Actually, me and Melissa always said that we're like, God's sake, you just don't want to be the last or the first person out. But I wasn't too fussed for the first two courses on that barricade. It was. Yeah. When it came down to the main course, and then you. You have to, like, shuffle around and just stand there.

Kate Austen [01:00:45]:
And it did feel really exposing, like, because also it goes to your head of like, oh, my God, if I haven't got this, I need to, like, pretend to be happy for Ben. Yay. I'm not happy for Ben at all.

Phil [01:01:00]:
Brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah. And you're. Because the way they do it as well, obviously, it's for drama, and all of that kind of stuff is that, you know, you get short of the first five, off you pop, and then there's three left to, you know, narrow it down and just build that tension. So when you make the last three, now, what are you thinking? You thinking I might be in with a chance, or are you thinking, oh, my God, I'm so close. What if. What if now is the time that, you know, I get knocked out or whatever?

Kate Austen [01:01:26]:
I was really nervous. They actually asked me how I'm feeling, and my voice is, like, absolutely gone? I was. I don't know. You're trying not to think of, like, the best version, because otherwise that's really disappointing. And I'd seen other chefs who had been disappointed, and I didn't really want to be that person. And Adam had a really, like, technically insane main course, but then he got knocked out. And so it was just me and Ben. And I was like, ben's not getting sodding too, like, no bloody way.

Kate Austen [01:01:56]:
I'll rip off him if he gets to. So I was just stood there kind of hoping and thinking, please be me.

Phil [01:02:04]:
Yeah. And. And guess what?

Kate Austen [01:02:08]:
And it was. Yeah. I mean, I can believe that that is a moment I will Never forget my entire life. It was absolutely nuts. I think it was very overwhelming. And, you know, by that point, it had been like six months of work, and I. I was. I was up at 6am, like, making dishes till midnight, driving the length and breadth of the country to get stuff, asking favors from anyone.

Kate Austen [01:02:31]:
You then come and cut your heart out. And then. And then you get told and you're like, I mean, it was all worth it. And it definitely was going back to earlier, what we said of, like, you've got to push the rough bits. Like, there were rough bits in that competition and in the. You know, I. When I came in the regionals, I actually didn't even have a bloody job. Like, I wasn't in a good spot at the time.

Kate Austen [01:02:51]:
I'd come for a job, and they said they weren't sure, and I had to come back to do a second. So I. It wasn't all glitz and glamour, so I think it. It felt like, yes, it was one of those ones where I stuck at things when they weren't brilliant. And it's paid off.

Phil [01:03:06]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the photograph you put up on your Instagram, I think, just captured that moment so perfectly. Like, you can tell that you're, you know, you're doubled over, basically, hands on your knees, kind of like, God Almighty, can you believe that this has actually happened? And then. But then. Is there then a point where you go, I'm delighted that that's happened. And then you go, I've got to go and do this now.

Kate Austen [01:03:30]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phil [01:03:32]:
Right.

Kate Austen [01:03:32]:
Yeah. That was. Yes. I think I had, like, a few days, and then I was like, tom Perrier, just tell me how to do a banquet for 90. Someone will wheel in all the things. Like, I've won by this point. Yeah, no, no, we definitely had to do that one. And I think the logistics with Paris made it really challenging.

Kate Austen [01:03:52]:
But the crew are really supportive, and as chefs, everyone supports each other so much. Amazing. Like, food economists that don't probably get enough air time, they moved. Heaven and earth. They. Yeah, and producers. You know, like, my dish, the. On the main course was really important.

Kate Austen [01:04:11]:
Like, the figs were super nice, and someone drove and got the best fake. You know, people just. Yeah. Were very supportive and helped a lot.

Phil [01:04:20]:
Yeah. And I suppose a lot of that as well, is there's a massive unknown quantity. Right. Is that you don't really know the environment that you're going into. You don't know the equipment. You don't know, logistically, layouts and how that's all going to interweave and all of that kind of stuff. So, you know, it's. I suppose you just kind of get.

Phil [01:04:37]:
You have to get into problem solving mode from the first moment. Right. And figure out. Because you don't really have a choice because it's on telly.

Kate Austen [01:04:44]:
Yeah, yeah, that is. That did happen a couple of times where you think like, oh, my God, this is going on. And the night before, I was lying in the hotel just staring at the ceiling like. Like, it's gonna move. It's. We're gonna come out the other side. But what the hell it's gonna take to get on the other side of that day? I have no idea. Yeah, and it was a bit brutal, but I, you know, I made lifelong friends from that show.

Kate Austen [01:05:08]:
Those boys are so lovely and helped me so much, so I'm very thankful.

Phil [01:05:11]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big shout out to Kirk, by the way. Plates is amazing. If you haven't.

Kate Austen [01:05:15]:
Have you been?

Phil [01:05:16]:
Yeah, yeah, I haven't been.

Kate Austen [01:05:17]:
I'm like, hello, we're really good friends.

Phil [01:05:19]:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly what I'm gonna do.

Kate Austen [01:05:23]:
Please. He's like, there's a waitlist till February.

Phil [01:05:27]:
Yeah. And no. And that, again, that. That whole part of that competition for me is, especially when you get to the banquet, is that the. I mean, I know they. They've kind of thrown in another little competition a bit, but I. You know, the champion of champions or whatever it is. You can keep that for me.

Phil [01:05:42]:
I'm not really. No disrespect to Kirk, but you're now a team, right? You're. You're now a kitchen brigade that has to pull off a banquet. So you. You've kind of got. You've got no choice but to help each other. And whatever you need.

Kate Austen [01:05:56]:
I could not have done it without them. I think I have 14 elements, apparently, on my dish. And, yeah, if I hadn't have had them to help and do stuff, then they wouldn't. And even, like, the things that you don't necessarily see, like all the dietaries. Kirk actually did loads of diet cheese because suddenly I had to start having, like, vegan vegetarians, pescatarians and stuff like that. And I didn't even have enough time to do the normal menu. Let Al worry about people on cauliflower steaks and stuff.

Phil [01:06:19]:
Yeah.

Kate Austen [01:06:20]:
So he helped with all of that, right?

Phil [01:06:22]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Superb. Well, I mean, great show. I mean, another great year, actually, to just as a spectacle to watch. And I suppose in the. In the aftermath of that, because here was another. It was another first for. For you here as well, because this was the first time a female chef had had a main course.

Phil [01:06:39]:
Is that right?

Kate Austen [01:06:40]:
Yes.

Phil [01:06:41]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're doing all right.

Kate Austen [01:06:45]:
I know that. Good timing and good luck working out well.

Phil [01:06:50]:
But I suppose in the aftermath of it, it's a bit of a whirlwind because I would imagine. And look, I put myself in this category as well. Everybody wants a piece of you because, you know, you've just put yourself front and center into one of the most dynamic and capable chefs that this country has right now. So everybody probably wants interviews and all manner of stuff. So one, I am very grateful that you said yes to my show. That gut instinct coming. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I mean, what's it like in the aftermath? Is it just a bit kind of nuttish?

Kate Austen [01:07:23]:
Yeah, yeah, it was, it was, it is. I think I have been so lucky with the people that have approached me that want to work together. I have a fantastic agent who I know has my best interest at heart and are super hard work workers and yeah, just take as many opportunities as I can get. It's going to be a small, you know, it's not going to last forever. And I'm a person that likes to have a very full plate and with my job at the minute, I'm able to juggle everything on the side. So I very thankful for what's come my way.

Phil [01:07:59]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I often ask a question towards the back end of conversation around what's next? But it sounds for you, and totally correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're in a happy place. So, you know, probably not in a rush to disrupt that too much right now.

Kate Austen [01:08:15]:
I'm going to keep rolling as I am. Like, I love this job. I can do loads on the side. I'm doing a book, so that's very exciting. I've got some Christmas shows coming up, finalizing some stuff from next year. I'm going to do some ticketed evenings and collaborations with maybe a fancy Scandi chef. So I can't. Yeah, I can't complain.

Kate Austen [01:08:37]:
Watch your space.

Phil [01:08:40]:
A number of things there. You've just kind of sparked my interest. I love it. I love a book. You can maybe see some up there, but also ticketed events. As long as you're doing a 15 course tasting menu.

Kate Austen [01:08:50]:
Mind, I know I can't do a bowl of pasta now. Yeah. So I got, hopefully got some of them coming for next year and they'll be all on my Instagram. I'm not very good at TikTok. So you have to follow Instagram.

Phil [01:09:03]:
Yeah. I've only just gone onto TikTok and I'm really not sure what I'm doing, so I can't.

Kate Austen [01:09:07]:
I'm. Yeah, I'm. I'm not very good at it.

Phil [01:09:10]:
Yeah. But thank you so much for the time you've. You've given this show today. It's been really, really great to chat through your journey. I am going to ask you one. One final question before you go, which is around funny stories. And actually, there was something in your form that sparked my interest. It was something about washing fishbones.

Kate Austen [01:09:28]:
Oh, God. Yeah. So we used to. At aoc, we used to. There were quite naughty boys and we used to have some interns. And Scandinavia are really good in that you get students in and they work as the team. And someone told the boys. Boys.

Kate Austen [01:09:42]:
Young boy. To go and wash the fish bones. And then I came around the back sink, and he had a sink full of fairy liquid and a sponge and was literally washing the fishbones, which wasn't great. And then later on, they. I went to the back freezer. We were doing a stock take, and now all these bags of frozen water. And I was like, well, how are all these bags of frozen water for? And they said, oh, we just got him to freeze water for boiling.

Phil [01:10:09]:
Oh, God. Poor lad. But it's kind of amazing, kitchens. It's like a rites of passage.

Kate Austen [01:10:16]:
Yeah, it's fine. I can. I'd rather that than anything else.

Phil [01:10:19]:
Yeah, indeed. Yeah. Yeah. I think we've probably all been on the receiving end of stuff like that.

Kate Austen [01:10:24]:
And I've never done something so stupid.

Phil [01:10:27]:
Really? Really. Do you just see straight through?

Kate Austen [01:10:29]:
I'm gonna write in all these people. Right in. It's not true. She's a big idiot.

Phil [01:10:34]:
No, yeah, absolutely. The other. The other final thing that I'm just going to say, which is, once again, from your notes, and this is not a question I really ask anymore on the show, but it's just to get a sense of what's in people's minds. And it was just really centered around your top three reasons why hospitality is a great industry to be in. And the first one that was on there, free food. I mean, we've not had that before. And actually. Yeah, I like that.

Kate Austen [01:11:03]:
Yeah, yeah. Free food and drink. Yeah, great.

Phil [01:11:05]:
What's not to love?

Kate Austen [01:11:06]:
That is literally the perks of being chefs, that when you go places, you look after each other.

Phil [01:11:10]:
Yes, absolutely.

Kate Austen [01:11:11]:
So I'm enjoying those perks. As of the last few months.

Phil [01:11:15]:
Brilliant. Fantastic. Well, look, Kate, thank you so much for your time. It's been a real joy to speak to you about your journey. You've obviously got a hell of a journey ahead of you as well, in whatever form that looks like. And very grateful for the time that you've given this show.

Kate Austen [01:11:31]:
No, thank you.

Phil [01:11:32]:
Have a good one.

Kate Austen [01:11:33]:
Bye. Cheers.