#216 - Hospitality Meets Emma McClarkin - Pints, Parliament & Positivity

00:00.89
Phil Street
And a huge hospitality meets welcome to Emma MacLarkin.

00:04.99
Emma McClarkin
How are you?

00:05.85
Phil Street
I'm all right, how are you?

00:07.09
Emma McClarkin
Good, it's really good. Great start to 2025.

00:11.70
Phil Street
Well, that's good to hear, because that's not what you would believe if you were reading everything that's going on in the world right now.

00:17.21
Emma McClarkin
Oh, no, I, oh, right, should we start again then? Sorry, Phil, because I'm talking to myself again, sorry.

00:23.42
Phil Street
No, but like I i've ah want you to talk as yourself.

00:23.79
Emma McClarkin
Sorry, let's start again, Phil. Sorry, I'm gonna close the doors and then I'll feel set and then we'll I'll just but remember that I'm really miserable. Right.

00:40.41
Emma McClarkin
Right, sorry.

00:41.86
Phil Street
That's all right, try that again.

00:43.73
Emma McClarkin
Game face, come on Emma, you're a grumpy woman, right.

00:46.90
Phil Street
Is that that is like the message that's supposed to be conveyed conveyed at the moment? Because it isn't...

00:50.12
Emma McClarkin
Apparently, obviously if I say I'm too happy they'll be like bloody hell woman, it's fucking January, okay.

00:55.26
Phil Street
Yeah, yeah.

00:56.07
Emma McClarkin
I'm trying to not say a date or time because I'm presuming this goes out and when you want it to go out really.

01:02.07
Phil Street
Yeah, I'm probably about a month away from actual release.

01:02.47
Emma McClarkin
what

01:05.47
Phil Street
and That's generally the leading.

01:06.08
Emma McClarkin
fine So I could have been a bit happier, but there we go, fine.

01:09.16
Phil Street
Very good. Right. And a huge hospitality he meet's welcome to Emma MacLarkin.

01:15.39
Emma McClarkin
It's good to be here.

01:16.73
Phil Street
How are you doing?

01:17.85
Emma McClarkin
I'm great, thank you. I've had a good start to 2025. I know it's a tough one for the sector, um but um I'm hopeful that this year we will still be able to achieve a lot, succeed a lot.

01:22.90
Phil Street
Yeah.

01:30.66
Emma McClarkin
um It is extremely tough, but um I have a great team at the British Freedom Pop Association and um I'm really looking forward to this year.

01:38.44
Phil Street
Brilliant. Well, you just went straight into that there, which is great.

01:38.85
Emma McClarkin
right

01:40.76
Phil Street
So tell tell the world what it is that you do.

01:44.24
Emma McClarkin
So I'm the chief exec of the British Beer and Pub Association, and well, I'm incredibly proud of, and I've led the the BBPA for now for some five years, and time flies when you're having fun. And despite all the challenges that this sector faces,

02:01.04
Emma McClarkin
um I'm still having a good time. and And that's the ethos of the sector, really, is that's what we're there to do. We're there to make people feel good, give them a warm welcome, pick them up when they're feeling down.

02:12.72
Emma McClarkin
And yeah, that that's the kind of positive outlook I want to have for this year and for the sector.

02:18.01
Phil Street
Totally. Yeah. Well, you are bang on message for for the podcast because look, at the I have spoken about this on this show before.

02:24.81
Emma McClarkin
i

02:27.91
Phil Street
i've I brand myself as naively positive. um But they the thing about that is for me is that We kind of have to be a little bit because there is a lot of challenge out there and I'm not naive enough to accept that, you know, we can just get past it all by a little bit of hope and yay and all that. But we've got to at least try. And that's the kind of the the line in the sand that we need to to draw we that we believe that we actually can get past this.

02:54.28
Emma McClarkin
I totally understand where people are at and there's a cliff edge that's coming in April and all of the announcements from the budget are going to hit.

02:59.70
Phil Street
Yeah.

03:02.50
Emma McClarkin
you know We're desperately hoping that the Chancellor sees the light and recognises we can't take so much burden and cost to doing business of some £650 million all at once.

03:13.84
Phil Street
Yeah.

03:14.17
Emma McClarkin
um But the reality is is that when we open our doors and people step into our venues, they're expecting a quality experience and their expectations are greater now, more than they've ever been. And so we really do need to remind ourselves, you know, we have to provide that quality service, that warm welcome um and that feel good factor. That's what we do that's ah as an industry. And it's what we also claim that we can do.

03:41.17
Emma McClarkin
for the politicians to make the voters feel that they're also being listened to and getting that feel-good factor when they make their announcements. So we have to keep it up. I know it's tough, but keep the faith. We have an amazing business. We have amazing people that work for us. So, you know, we have to we have to keep looking forwards.

04:02.26
Phil Street
yeah Yeah, I think and in times of toughness, you always, I think you have to find the glimmers of hope. You have to find the the moments that give you that this feeling that, you know, this will pass. And that is generally what happens in history, is that there are moments of toughness and we all get past, I mean, just look at Covid, right? I mean, that was probably the the the big moment of toughness that we all share. And and somehow we're still here, um you know, if despite of being shut down for as long as as we were.

04:30.70
Phil Street
So, yeah, I mean, um I definitely don't want to make this gloomy. I definitely don't want to make it, ah I suppose, as I said, naively positive. I'm fully respectful of the fact that people are facing ah big challenges.

04:43.56
Phil Street
But at the same time, where you can only generally get past the challenge with a mindset that says you can do it. um So, yeah, that's my battle cry.

04:53.93
Emma McClarkin
yeah Yeah, and I feel that you know I'm always fully armoured at all times. and It's just the way that we we have to be. We have to be really resilient. We have to be ready to to roll with the punches. um And definitely as the lobbyists of the sector, it's been challenge after challenge since the pandemic. So we just keep the armour on. And that's why we're here to support our members. and and we're ever ready to go into battle but you know we still need to have our moments of celebration where we celebrate our small wins and sometimes it's a you know a long battle but we've got to win it little by little and I feel we're doing better than we think and I think that's what we were saying glass half full, glass is definitely

05:33.32
Phil Street
Yeah.

05:40.13
Phil Street
Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, we'll park that section of the show. It might come up again in the field of conversation, but what what I really want to do is kind of take you all the way back to the the beginning of your career because having i've done I've done a tiny bit of research, basically all I could find really. um And your route to what you're doing now is really interesting. So um yeah, take us back to the beginning of your career. What did you get off and running doing? And kind of take us forward from there.

06:09.76
Emma McClarkin
um So I studied law at university and was following the legal path and I was working in a law firm and reading such three instruments and pieces of legislation and going, to who is writing this stuff that we then have to to implement and interpret?

06:26.61
Emma McClarkin
And you know I felt like I really wanted to get closer to the law-making process in whatever way I could. And so in a long-winded way, I went into working to in politics for members of the European Parliament.

06:33.62
Phil Street
Right?

06:41.13
Emma McClarkin
um And I worked him in the in the media and and PR department um for the Conservative Party. and And from that experience, it took me over to Brussels to work inside the European Parliament, where I was an advisor.

06:53.67
Emma McClarkin
and then i was included in a lot of the discussions, but there were secret negotiations that took place only in um you know closed rooms, behind closed doors.

07:04.72
Emma McClarkin
And I was like, how do I get into that room? How do I understand how these decisions, this pool-making decisions are being made? I'm going to have to get myself elected so that I can be the elected person that's in that room.

07:16.77
Emma McClarkin
So um I was elected when I was 30. I was the youngest ah politician representing the UK at the time.

07:22.03
Phil Street
Oh, wow.

07:24.44
Emma McClarkin
and Yeah, it was an extraordinary 10-year experience. I was elected twice, served two terms in the European Parliament, and met people from all around the world, all different political parties, and I specialised in international trade. But the first donkey that I worked on in the Parliament was on food labelling. And that brought me immediately to to be talking about food and drink, and particularly alcohol And I was known to be one of the few politicians that would talk to the alcohol industry and would actually discuss alcohol policy.

07:58.48
Emma McClarkin
And they were trying to put traffic lights on all food and drink and, you know, a big bowl of whiskey would have had a big green label on it. I had to sort of point out the obvious. This is really probably not the message that you want to be sending.

08:10.39
Phil Street
yes

08:10.66
Emma McClarkin
And so ever since then, I was known to be someone that would champion um food and drink and particularly that, you know, brave enough to touch on the alcohol sector.

08:21.29
Emma McClarkin
and we won an exemption for it ah so that was great but obviously that connection was there and I became the vice president of the beer club inside the European Parliament which is probably the most important piece of information which connects me to my job today where we would meet and we would discuss the brewing industry and wider hospitality and how we needed to recognise the contribution it makes and um and yeah and so And in between, I did work for the rugby football union as well. So a little bit of sport for good measure. and But it all revolves around my passions. I'm incredibly lucky in my career that whatever I love in life, I've been able to turn into a job. And I love rugby. I love beer and pubs.

09:04.20
Emma McClarkin
I love politics and so I've been able to stitch them all together and I think that now im in this job it really brings together all those elements of things that i'm I really care about really in life.

09:16.15
Phil Street
Yeah. Well that's the dream isn't it? You do...

09:19.33
Emma McClarkin
It is a dream. I am really lucky. I am really lucky and I think that Because if if you're genuinely passionate about what you fight for, you always get 110%. And ten percent and um it makes it easy to get up every single day. You know you can speak you know get approached about lots of different things. With the realities, you've got to feel it in in in your guts and in your heart to express it every day. um and And I do. And yeah, I mean, it's it's a tough day when I'm going around visiting my members and

09:53.65
Emma McClarkin
Meeting such amazing people in beautiful pubs around the country and getting to taste some of the finest ales that we have. um

10:03.10
Phil Street
i'm I mean, I'm sold. Sold? Yeah, but well there's ah there's a couple of things to to unpack there, I think for sure. one massive congrats on ah being elected the youngest member of the European Parliament from the UK at the time. um Because I think there's there's probably this perception that you know in order to be a politician you've got to have you'll have had this long life experience and blah blah blah and all that kind of stuff. I mean we could argue

10:34.38
Phil Street
It's not really serving us well doing that. But um anyway, you probably can't comment on that. um ah top for that's that's me That's for me to comment on that one.

10:43.95
Emma McClarkin
i yeah I mean, i think I think you do need to reflect the people that you're representing. And I think sometimes you do forget about the demographic. I 100% understand that you need to have experience. My experience was of the machine in Brussels where I served. Without that knowledge of how the machine works, it is really difficult to influence it. um But it was really clear, you you have to have the people that ask the right questions and you don't need to be you know, 50, 60 to ask the right questions. You can ask the right questions from an understanding and from a willingness to open up and speak to all stakeholders. I mean, I i remember talking to some politicians that would ah you know outright say, why are you speaking to industry? And I'd be saying, ah you know, because we're specialising this piece of legislation on water leisure craft, and I don't know anything about water leisure craft. So surely the best thing to do is

11:36.97
Emma McClarkin
is to talk to the people that do it that it's going to impact every day and and and fill in the gaps in your knowledge. So I think that yeah with the experience I've had today, now I know the closer are working with business, you know it would it would probably make me a better politician today. But at the time, um we really needed to be more reflective of the demographic and have people that understood the process. And that was something that I think I brought and I learned throughout it. But you as long as you've got the right person who's hungry to do it, represents their constituents, put in the hours to do that job, you know ah whilst they're in the parliament, but also outside of the parliament. I think that's really, really important and someone that sticks to their principles. And that was something that I tried and I'm very proud that I think that I was able to do.

12:28.65
Phil Street
Yeah, I think you've you've absolutely nailed it.

12:29.10
Emma McClarkin
and

12:31.81
Phil Street
As ah as a layman, who you know, who sometimes watches politics a little bit frustrated about that, it seems that a lot of the problems are very obvious to the vast majority of people, and yet they fall on deaf ears. And we've kind of alluded to maybe a couple of those issues within sector, even earlier on in the conversation. But you know I was talking to a guy last week um from the US, actually, they have exactly the same ah issues there. um and And for me, he fixed politics. And you've just kind of summarized it perfectly in that last statement that you made around

13:06.63
Phil Street
you know, you you fight for the things that you believe in. And actually, if people see that you are doing that, then it's very easy to get behind somebody who is fighting for the things that you believe in, who is actually genuinely then, you know, putting this on the agenda and not letting it drop when somebody just casts it aside and and all of that kind of kind of stuff. So um that to me is how how we fix it. We just need more people who are I mean, maybe they've got they need better individual marketing to showcase what it is that they stand for, their values, their human values, not just you know their political values.

13:45.04
Emma McClarkin
Yeah, the the job is not done on the day you're elected. And I think that's a trap that a lot of them fall into. Your job starts when you get elected and you cannot forget the pledges you made, the promises that you made, the principles and models you said that you would stand up for and defend. And I think we need politicians that walk the talk and don't forget five minutes later, the promises they made. And they you know and and with some sort of, you know, um dismissive, you know, well, they'll forget about it before the next election.

14:18.23
Emma McClarkin
That is absolutely not the case. You you have to stand through to your mandate that you got elected for. You have to stay open and adaptive in listening. And I think that my experience as a politician um and being lobbied has absolutely helped me be the person that then lobs politicians from both sides throughout my career.

14:36.01
Phil Street
be the lobby. ah yeah yeah

14:40.83
Emma McClarkin
But it really does help to have To know how they're thinking, you know, uh, politics can be a game, but this is people's lives they're playing with. This is people's livelihoods that they're playing with.

14:52.03
Emma McClarkin
It is not a game. It is something they need to be incredibly mindful of and protective.

14:53.82
Phil Street
yeah

14:58.47
Emma McClarkin
And, you know, any changes that they make, and the full impact needs to be assessed, the full impact of what their decision taken into consideration too often we're hearing now.

15:09.38
Emma McClarkin
or we didn't realise that, or we didn't realise that, but it's far too late to prevent the the damage that's been done. So let's hope that this year they start to remember a little bit of the platform they stood on growing the economy, you know it's standing up for for people and creating jobs, investing in the UK and putting the UK on the global map. That's what we want them to do.

15:35.08
Phil Street
Yeah, yeah, yeah. but Well, yeah, I did. Well, I'm not going to get into whether the... It depends. Also, I think one of these things, there's ah another frustration of politics for me is you have to be one thing or another, like you you have to follow blue or red, basically, just to be you know very simplistic about it. But in actual fact, you can like stuff that happens on the other side of where your natural politics lie. And I think if the the problem that I have at the moment is is that if you're seen to be liking something that the other side is doing it feels like you're just being you know you're cast aside or you're shot down or or or or whatever and this there's this polarization that's that's kind of taking place which is just a little bit well I was going to say annoying but that's not a big enough word

16:19.10
Emma McClarkin
Yeah.

16:21.67
Emma McClarkin
ah A good idea should be a good idea and people should recognize it if it genuinely is something that's a good idea. um But the same happens if it's a bad idea. Everyone should recognize that it's a bad idea and not just say, oh, it's the polar opposite of the other political color.

16:32.96
Phil Street
Yeah.

16:36.93
Emma McClarkin
So I'm going to go for that. You know, that's, that's really not using their intelligence and um being smart, you know? So I think if we can co-create solutions then let's do it. Let's find a way to co-create solutions at work with everybody recognizing that the right decision needs to be made. It's possible, but everybody has to be open to that. And I think sometimes you're right, tribalism does sneak in and it stops them from recognizing a good idea when it's there.

17:08.15
Phil Street
Yeah, absolutely. I never thought I'd be sat here on a Monday morning talking about politics. We've just yeah gone straight to this um today. but and What I really love about your your journey, and you can correct totally correct me if I've picked this up wrong, but it it seems to me like there hasn't been ah like a grand massive strategy that you were working towards this one thing. Things have happened within each role that you've had that have affected your choice as to what you have you you are where you go next. and And the one for me that I just love when you said is like, you know, you were saying that these policies and laws were being made, but you had zero capacity to affect that. And so you want to get closer to how you affect that. So that's not a decision that I suppose you make until you've gained experience of ah of what ah whatever it is is, is your direction. It's not necessarily something that I guess you could

18:03.83
Phil Street
pick up at age 15 and go, that's what I want to do. um Some of these things just kind of come your way.

18:12.48
Emma McClarkin
I think you cannot plan life. Absolutely not. And if I, you know, when I was 18 year olds and I left school, if I thought I would be elected as a politician by the time I was 30, I would have said you're mad.

18:23.18
Phil Street
Yeah, yeah.

18:23.51
Emma McClarkin
but yeah But I didn't know the pathway. It wasn't clear to me. I didn't come from a political family. um I didn't have anybody that was plugged in that could lift me up or help me out. um So you just go.

18:34.31
Emma McClarkin
But it's all about networking. In fact, my first connection in politics was by meeting someone in the pub. And I wasn't very good when I was younger about networking or realizing that you needed to ask for help, but I did.

18:46.31
Emma McClarkin
I actually reached out to someone I met in the pub who told me that they worked for members of European, but I said, how do I do that? How do I get into that? And they said, well, actually I'm leaving. Do you want to apply for my job? And if I hadn't met that person down in the pub, then nothing would have happened.

18:57.66
Phil Street
Yeah. That's mad.

18:59.66
Emma McClarkin
So I think that there is a thread to everything in my life that comes back to the pub, um you know, when a life takes place.

18:59.74
Phil Street
Yeah.

19:05.46
Phil Street
That's good. That's a good thread.

19:07.94
Emma McClarkin
You know, it's always about the people you meet, the networking, the connections that you have. You know, when it came to this job, I have four separate people approached me and said, do you know this job is the job for you? You do know that you're the person that needs to leave the British Grand Club Association. And by the time the fourth person came around, okay, there's something in this. The world is trying to tell me that I should take up this opportunity.

19:31.18
Emma McClarkin
um But it was because, you know, you you gather a body of experience and passion and become well known, I i guess, as an advocate in my sector. And and and then people will now naturally gravitate towards you or you to them. But ah yeah, it is all about the poverty at the end of the day. And that suits me just fine.

19:49.99
Phil Street
Yeah, that's a great line. Actually, you've actually've already got ah probably a ah line of t-shirts from our discussion so far. No, that's cool. m I'd love to talk about a little bit about your time in the the European Parliament, just because I think the vast majority of us, I'm just talking about myself here, um ah don't really have a clue kind of what goes on and and all of that. them you should i I suppose the question is,

20:19.52
Phil Street
What is the question? I don't know. What's it like to be in the in the European Parliament?

20:24.56
Emma McClarkin
I loved it. It was great. It's an incredibly social environment um where you meet these incredible people from around the world, different political parties. and I have friends. i have friends from all across Europe, all different countries, all different political parties, and we could all sit down and have a drink um together and be friends and see past it um almost. You know, the barriers that we have in the UK, everyone's very tribal. And of course, that there's still groups that group together in in in Europe, but it was um far easier to sort of

20:57.53
Emma McClarkin
recognise each other um because we were just from different countries. But the reality of the situation is whilst I enjoyed the social side of the job, the political side of it was deeply frustrating. From a UK perspective, we would win the argument. So months and months and months of negotiation would go into anything that was voted on in the European Parliament. And we would win the argument and the whole way through, but we would lose the vote at the last minute. And so decisions were always being cemented that weren't always in our favour.

21:26.60
Emma McClarkin
And so it it it became deeply frustrating to try and work with the system, to try and change the system, to try and get the best outcome perhaps for for our country. and And I know that it's a very controversial issue talking about leaving the EU. But from my experience, it it became deeply frustrating because you weren't able to affect the outcome. And that ultimately, the outcome is what mattered. And so we tried and we tried and we tried. It didn't work out for us.

21:56.37
Emma McClarkin
But I'm not oblivious to the fact that the fallout from Brexit has been really difficult and people have been impacted by it. um But I still think that we need to make decisions that's best for the people of this country and hopefully we'll be able to continue to do that. But I still have great connections there. You know, one of my very good friends is the president of the European Parliament. One of them is now the the highest ranking diplomat for European foreign affairs and And these people, we still keep in touch and we still have conversations and and this is important because whilst we're not members, we're still friends and we still work together and we can still do that.

22:34.85
Phil Street
Totally. Yeah.

22:37.66
Emma McClarkin
So it's it was an enormously positive moment in my life, but it was definitely right for change for me.

22:44.92
Phil Street
Yeah, ah I suppose as well, like it's it's such a big machine and the difference there as well as I suppose is that If it's just the UK you're speaking about, you're just talking about ah basically trying to do the best for the British people. At least that's, I suppose, what it should be. And and that's, again, another political statement in itself. and But in the European Parliament, of course, you've got so many different countries, ideas and all of that. So ah it almost kind of showcases that actually by having that

23:20.86
Phil Street
Almost, you need a collaborative mindset towards trying to change something like that, I i would imagine. and But, yeah.

23:26.79
Emma McClarkin
I think what I learned from my experience was um listen to new ideas from a broader range of things, definitely. But they their recognition, for example, of hospitality as an industry, it it's unquestionable.

23:41.31
Emma McClarkin
For many of our European counterparts to talk about hospitality, it's like their main industry in many, many countries.

23:47.45
Phil Street
Yeah.

23:48.57
Emma McClarkin
And if it's not number one, it's number two. And yet in our country, and then at the time I was there, we we were the fourth largest industry, hospitality was, but we never talked about it. So I've learned a lot from with them talking about the industry within the context of the work I was doing at the time about how important an industry it was and the recognition that others gave to it and how far we had to come in order to recognize it. And we still have that today. You know, we still really need to get behind on sector and recognize that it gives so much the jobs it creates.

24:21.56
Emma McClarkin
We've got over a million jobs, such as in the beer in the pub sector. um And the contribution to economy, 34 billion is absolutely colossal. um Yet we'd never talk about it. And you know we were talking about my jobs that I've had in my career.

24:34.49
Emma McClarkin
They weren't in the careers library when I was at school, but a lot of hospitality options are not talked about either. And so now in the context of this job, I do talk a lot about the roles in hospitality, the pathways to careers that I didn't even know about.

24:40.31
Phil Street
yeah

24:48.80
Emma McClarkin
until I started working in the industry and really championing us as a sector that can get people into jobs really quickly, can get them progressing their careers enormously fast, in very well-paid roles and, you know, without having to go to university in many instances. So this is, this is like a great thing that other countries have recognised for years. You're very proud to say I'm a waiter and I've been a waiter all my life in Italy.

25:16.10
Phil Street
Yep.

25:16.14
Emma McClarkin
Whereas in the UK, we still sometimes think, oh, that's a bit of a yeah temporary situation, isn't it? Something's gone wrong, maybe. No, maybe it hasn't. Maybe they just absolutely love serving people.

25:26.37
Phil Street
Yeah.

25:27.89
Emma McClarkin
Absolutely love it.

25:29.32
Phil Street
yeah ah Yeah, somebody said to me ah a couple of weeks ago um that ah service is a love language. um And I loved that. I was like, yeah, I yeah hadn't even thought about it until that. But I still believe that the the ability to make people feel special is one of the greatest gifts that that somebody can have. and and And we don't talk nearly enough around. I'm not like talking about necessarily hospitality. I'm just talking about wider society. We don't talk about these being massively important skills that that people can have and and do learn from being in hospitality.

26:05.92
Phil Street
And there's no better feeling, I think, then than being able to kind of you know turn a really negative situation around into a positive one just because of your ability to you know ah converse with somebody and and and ah you know figure out the problem.

26:15.99
Emma McClarkin
yeah

26:22.67
Emma McClarkin
Their life skills. Skills that you learn in serving serving people in hospitality are life skills, you know, to be warm, friendly, listen, um lean in and and work as a team.

26:29.12
Phil Street
Yeah.

26:37.15
Emma McClarkin
Work as a team and also, you know, to to to make people feel special. That is a really special talent and lots of people have started their careers and starting going to other sectors, but the skills that they recognize, the skills that they learn, and particularly for young people,

26:53.15
Emma McClarkin
This is something we absolutely need to do is sir to give them, particularly we've got a whole generation of young ones coming up now that were brought up during COVID that find social interaction quite good and stiff. And it's still enormously important in your professional life as well as your personal life to be able to break down those barriers and to connect with people as humans. That's what we do as a sector. That's so special. And I think if we can teach people that,

27:20.90
Emma McClarkin
from a young age, we're setting up people for success in the future, professionally and personally. And that's something that um we really need to value. We really need to recognize it and we really need to value it.

27:33.18
Phil Street
Yeah, absolutely, no doubt. So give us a kind of, ah ah I suppose, a snapshot of what but a day in the life of Emma MacLarkan looks like.

27:44.00
Emma McClarkin
Oh my goodness. Well, today I'm doing a podcast with this great guy called Phil, um but then later

27:49.06
Phil Street
I've heard of it. Not everything you've heard is true, by the way.

27:50.71
Emma McClarkin
and

27:52.68
Phil Street
ah

27:52.88
Emma McClarkin
Now, later on, I'm joining the High Streets Task Force Senior Leaders Group, where we're going to discuss how we're going to lead high street regeneration. Very, very topical, because there's an awful lot of people, businesses struggling out there. And the pub is normally the anchor on the high street, creates that football, other businesses benefit from. So we'll have a discussion about that. Later on today, I'm off to Chip in Camden, going to visit a pub. And then I've got a conference that I'm speaking at um tomorrow. So, you know, and I could be speaking with ministers.

28:21.39
Emma McClarkin
as I was last Thursday, as well as speaking to new members, people that create newbies or um start their own pub chains, for example. So bringing them into the membership, explaining about how we represent the sector, um or I could do a day out of trade where I'm actually meeting my members. And that's so important to me because I get to hear it from those operators and tell their stories. Because ultimately I'm a storyteller. I tell the story of the great British pub and our great British boroughs and it's a wonderful story to tell but you always need new material um examples of how they've helped support their community or how a piece of legislation is actually affecting their small business and they you know the concrete examples of that and those things are really really helpful to help me then go back to Westminster, back to my job, back to lobbying and try to

29:16.35
Emma McClarkin
get the politicians to support us with recognition for the sector, hopefully reducing the tax burden that we're under and also recognising that the accumulative impact of all of the legislation that they're layering up really does hold us back from doing what we can do and they should really be unlocking us, unlocking our potential to help support communities, grow local economies, provide local jobs and really fire on our economy. That's something that we do.

29:45.32
Emma McClarkin
And we just need them to to recognize that. So my days are ah really packed, really varied, all different parts of the country. um And then I am also the chair of the World Brewing Alliance.

29:57.95
Emma McClarkin
So that might mean that I have to go to Geneva and do some lobbying at the UN n or the WHO to make sure that international alcohol policy is supporting our businesses as well.

30:10.01
Emma McClarkin
So there's kind of lots of different layers and it keeps me pretty busy.

30:11.71
Phil Street
Oh, yeah.

30:14.51
Phil Street
yeah And yet you have time to do podcasts on a Monday morning. I once had ah at somebody on the show who was doing a podcast with me and then immediately was going to Sky to do a section for Sky and I was like, ah for What? i Like, all of a sudden, I felt like I'd made it and because they're, you know, I'm in the same breadth as an actual media outlet. um But no, I mean, a very varied, I would imagine, as well, because you you have there's a lot of different voices, I would imagine, even within your own membership and trying to keep ah everybody on this the same page and everybody happy must be must be a challenging, challenging your job at times.

30:54.36
Emma McClarkin
I have a lot of members, a lot of great members, but yeah, their priorities will be very often the same, but in a different order. And so it is difficult trying to get the right balance amongst them and getting the understanding of where the core priorities lay. But, you know, my, my members have been fantastic during COVID. I think more than ever, we recognize that we're all part of the same ecosystem. We will all rise or fall together.

31:21.39
Phil Street
Yeah.

31:21.82
Emma McClarkin
And so every part of that ecosystem needs to feel heard, represented, included, and we need to pull together. And that's why I've said, you know, to to other people that are still not inside the British Green Public Association's membership, join us. Join and support and strengthen our ecosystem, our voice in the parliament, so that we can help affect the changes that make it work. um And there will always be competition. That's what we do. It should be welcomed. But I think that since COVID, this collaborative working processes come around where people are far more open about it.

31:57.07
Emma McClarkin
They recognise that everyone's facing the same challenges and actually we're all stronger, we all rise and fall together. So strengthening and sharing best practice and experience now has become commonplace because they recognise that actually there's no point in me just doing well and everybody else failing around me.

32:15.94
Emma McClarkin
I need to bring everybody up at the same time.

32:15.98
Phil Street
Yeah.

32:18.30
Emma McClarkin
We will all benefit from that. But it can be tricky. on tough days like budget day and fallout things that will have a different impact for different people.

32:23.72
Phil Street
Oh, God.

32:27.28
Emma McClarkin
But we try and hold them all together under our umbrella and inside our family.

32:32.53
Phil Street
Yeah, I completely agree with you. I mean, you know, the stronger together kind of is up. It's just... Business 101 really, I mean, you can, this is why I think a lot of the time um people kind of lambast big business, but big business is also essential to help give strength to the voice for the the small person on the street who might just have one outlet or or or whatever. and And bringing all that together into one place is ah is a ah challenge which is not to be sniffed at, but equally when it works is a very, very special thing.

33:07.67
Emma McClarkin
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, I always say, you know, one pub in a village or town is a small business. It may be owned by a large parent company, but it is a small business in and of it's right. You know, one brewery that's in one part of the country supports the ecosystem there in that part of the country and through distribution throughout but at the rest of the network and the supply chain. So there is a bigger impact always to be considered as well as the localised one.

33:37.58
Emma McClarkin
And we just need to try and find ways that we can, as the BBPA, shine a light on all the small contributions that are made. But yeah, the bigger companies also have you know teams that can support others, that have full-time staff.

33:50.08
Emma McClarkin
you know and Some of our initiatives like sustainability, small businesses can't afford to have a separate person that does sustainability, or suddenly someone that does separately, you know just purely diversity and inclusivity.

33:56.51
Phil Street
Yeah.

34:03.34
Emma McClarkin
And sometimes the larger companies can give that um guidance and support um and sharing of best practice to the company the other companies as well within the context of the the group works that we do at the BBPA.

34:17.01
Emma McClarkin
And we're very proud of what we've done. um And people are on different parts of the journey, but they're still on the same journey. They just be at different stages in it. And so how can we help bring people on the journey with us?

34:28.22
Emma McClarkin
that That's ultimately what we do.

34:28.26
Phil Street
Yeah.

34:30.17
Emma McClarkin
And sometimes the large guys can actually help us do that. And and I hope the BBPA has seen as someone that journey too.

34:37.38
Phil Street
Yeah, brilliant. You've got an OBE.

34:41.97
Emma McClarkin
I'm very proud of my OBE now.

34:43.29
Phil Street
We have to talk about that. How did that come about?

34:46.80
Emma McClarkin
Well, but my absolute honour to receive it actually from from Queen Elizabeth um when when I was actually awarded it and it's all my certificate um for Services to Hostility throughout COVID.

34:59.28
Emma McClarkin
and Really it's a recognition of all the work that my team put in and the British Beer and Prop Association over that period of time to sustain and and support the viewing pub sector throughout the crisis. um But I was actually awarded it by King Charles himself. So I must be quite an unusual person that was awarded it by one will not can then given it by the incoming one. It was a very special day and enormously proud to share that with my family who it meant so much to them, so much to them.

35:34.71
Emma McClarkin
so It was a great experience as well.

35:37.14
Phil Street
Yeah, I don't, I mean, this is my belief is that I don't think anybody sets off on the trajectory to to achieve that. I think when it comes, it's it's just probably wonderful vindication that, you know, actually the work that you're doing is being seen.

35:52.72
Phil Street
But also, as you say, like you can't get there without the support of the people behind you, right? And that's family and work colleagues and and whatever. um So is ah I always find these things a wonderful acknowledgement of your circle, whatever that circle is, as ah has you might up the letters, but everybody else has played their part.

36:13.11
Emma McClarkin
couldn't put it better myself it is absolutely and it's so a wonderful thing to receive an experience and I was very lucky in that it was from the King and I was able to make him laugh in our short exchange.

36:25.42
Phil Street
I was just going to say, I had made a note of this.

36:30.02
Emma McClarkin
He's a big beer and pub lover you know so we had ah a little exchange about that and he but he genuinely is passionate about pubs and um he's done a lot of work with Pub is the Hub and so he really cares about us providing services to rural communities and you know would be different parts of community life disappearing you know post offices closing shops closing pubs and their diversification and filling in the gaps he's he's a big supporter of and so so yeah we had a good chat and uh yeah so it was a wonderful thing to remember and a lovely memory that luckily someone caught on video so i have that and i didn't show that to people sometimes

37:09.42
Phil Street
ah Very good.

37:12.91
Phil Street
Yeah, I suppose as well, look, I mean, the the message is obviously out there, like how important the pub industry is to to everyone, like, I mean, not just us who love the sector, but a comment I made ah on somebody else's podcast was, is that you know, if you don't think that hospitality is important, and we were actually talking about it being the greatest greatest industry on Earth, imagine a world in which it doesn't exist, you know, imagine your local village pub not being there or the place your favourite restaurant, whatever, not being available to you anymore. And of course, a lot of us didn't have to imagine that because it actually happened in 2020.

37:53.83
Phil Street
and But that's how important it is. And for somebody like the king to acknowledge that means that the message is out there for sure. So we just have to, the message just needs, I suppose needs to just get in front of the right people who can affect the changes that we need to affect.

38:09.90
Phil Street
And that's, I suppose, that's on you.

38:10.54
Emma McClarkin
but

38:13.11
Emma McClarkin
power No, it's it's great. You're right. You know, everything in life um is about connection, human connection. And that's something that is really in short supply. in our communities at the moment, you know, so we provide that critical connection for people. Sometimes the only conversation that some will have in a day to really help save off loneliness. We know it's also the top top of the list of things people want when they're moving out and want a good pub in their community. And why? Because it says that they have really healthy, connected community as someone where they can go when they they um you know um can't face doing the washing up or

38:49.67
Emma McClarkin
you know, they're just desperate to to meet some new friends where they go. So we've got to keep providing that space and and finding more advocates for it. So that's why I'm always reaching out. very Will you step up? Will you speak? Will you become a voice and spokesperson for us? And then I was like, little of me. I'm like, no, you have to tell your story. You have to become one of us and join the the army so that we can keep protecting what's so very unique about the Great British Department. During the COVID,

39:17.86
Emma McClarkin
um I have to say that I got contacted by lots of people in the UK, but a lot of international media, people really concerned about the future of the Great British Pub. And I'm like, but your bars are closed, your pubs are closed.

39:28.99
Emma McClarkin
Yeah, but there's something really special and unique that when we come to the UK, be it from Japan, Brazil, Australia, we need to know the pub's still going to be there.

39:38.29
Phil Street
Right.

39:38.31
Emma McClarkin
There was this deep into international concern that our pubs were going to disappear and they wouldn't be able to have that unique experience because it is so unique. And so we have to recognize that.

39:49.17
Emma McClarkin
first and foremost, and hopefully um we will continue to do so and the sector will continue to thrive.

39:55.19
Phil Street
I mean, that's wonderful to hear, right? That it's got that kind of international impact.

39:58.91
Emma McClarkin
but

40:00.96
Phil Street
um But we we always talk about it. My wife and I talk about the fact that whenever you've, you know, you just, Maybe you're on ah a staycation somewhere in Yorkshire and you just stumble upon this little village pub gem and you think to yourself, we've spoken about this so many times about the fact that there's no foot and there is nowhere else that does pubs like this.

40:21.26
Phil Street
and You know, it like they're just homely, um you know, they're asked just, and to to kind of ah have have that international recognition for that as well, I think is, yeah, monumentally special.

40:31.65
Emma McClarkin
Yeah. It's really, it's really unique. It's really special. It needs to be protected. We cannot take it for granted. You know, everyone's like, oh, we love to go on a Sunday walk and then go to the pub. Or, you know, you might need to pop in a couple of times just to make sure that that pub can survive throughout the rest of the week. It is something really unique that we have to nurture. And it actually will nurture you back. That's the thing. You know, the more you go, you'll get that authentic experience. It's so important to tourism as well. Top five things to do in the UK is go to the pub.

41:01.66
Emma McClarkin
and have a British pint and some fish and chips, you that's on the list. That's the authentic experience. You want to get to know the people from that area, and that is the way to do it down the pond.

41:12.49
Phil Street
Yeah, but also some of the best business deals or political deals or whatever have happened in the pub right over the over the years. Some of the best ideas come out of being in the pub. but What's the most I think I can't remember the statistic. I did read this somewhere whereby there there is a quite a large proportion of businesses start on the back of a beer mat.

41:35.54
Phil Street
um

41:35.66
Emma McClarkin
Exactly. Bring back the beer, man. So we can write more ideas down in a nutshell.

41:38.09
Phil Street
Yeah. Yeah.

41:41.20
Emma McClarkin
And I've done that in my lifetime. I mean, I love the pub so much I tried to buy a pub. And I actually wanted to buy a brewery as well. A small one. But it takes an awful lot.

41:53.08
Emma McClarkin
The dream of running your own pub is still there. People still think, oh, it'd be great if I could own a pub or brew my own beer. And it is a dream. It's still a very tangible one. It's still there for anyone that has it.

42:05.87
Emma McClarkin
um that great love of it the sex but it is a tough job too there is an awful lot it takes to run and visit this and it's harder than it looks now i know from the other side um but you know it is something that inspires people for sure

42:20.47
Phil Street
Yeah, absolutely. um i yeah There's a couple of things I just want to cover before I let you get on with your Monday. um And one of them was actually the the question that I asked, what is the best question that you've ever been asked before?

42:29.72
Emma McClarkin
but with ah

42:35.76
Phil Street
And this one really, really intrigued me, ah which was very simply, why do you like working in a man's world?

42:42.82
Emma McClarkin
Yeah.

42:42.91
Phil Street
Like, I mean, who asks that question?

42:43.37
Emma McClarkin
I ah know. Actually, several people have asked me that.

42:48.35
Phil Street
Really?

42:48.81
Emma McClarkin
Several journalists have asked me that question. And I never ever went into all of my different sectors thinking I'm you know pushing pushing the boundaries here as a woman.

43:02.90
Emma McClarkin
I just worked in areas that I loved, be it politics or rugby or now the beer in the pub sector. Um, but people assume that I just love doing it and I'm just doing it purposefully. I just genuinely love these areas and I don't see any barriers to going into them. Um, but it is an odd way to look at, look at things. Um, certainly if I've, you know, leaves the trail for someone else to do the same, then I'm really, really happy with it, but it isn't, it wasn't a conscious thing. It was, I just genuinely wanted to go into these areas that I'm passionate about.

43:36.49
Emma McClarkin
Um, but there is still barriers and there are still boundaries and ceilings particularly. And the more that we can support young women coming into whatever sector they choose and breaking, helping them to break those boundaries, it's going to make your business stronger and it's going to make it easier to get your hands on the best talent. And it's going to make it, you know, your sector look like a forward looking model to be in. But several times I've been challenged on that and.

44:06.18
Emma McClarkin
um I also spent a little bit of time with the army when I was a politician doing the parliamentary armed forces scheme. And again, I was asked and challenged her, why are you doing this? And I was like, there's no reason why I shouldn't be here.

44:19.39
Emma McClarkin
That is absolutely none.

44:19.59
Phil Street
Yeah.

44:21.25
Emma McClarkin
And I never even thought about it for a second. But it is hard. The doors are definitely heavier to push open for women. And we need to find shoulders to lean in to help push them open.

44:34.59
Emma McClarkin
That's for sure.

44:35.30
Phil Street
Yeah, well, ah the the saying is something along the lines of if you know you want to make meaningful, lasting change, then you have to keep everybody at the table to do that, right?

44:45.49
Phil Street
I mean, if you alienate people in that process, then um then it's just going to be a constant uphill battle.

44:46.25
Emma McClarkin
Yeah.

44:52.53
Phil Street
So finding allies and finding finding advocates and finding the people who ah want us all to just be better is where it's at. And whatever your battle, I suppose,

45:05.36
Phil Street
in that regard.

45:06.89
Emma McClarkin
Definitely. I mean, i you want the best, the brightest people helping you find the right solutions. And I think that when men and women work together, you get the best outcome. But you just want the best person first and foremost. And then and then you need to make sure you've got that breadth of thinking, you know, covering all bases. Have we got every angle covered? That's how you're going to survive. And that's why more and more people are diversifying their businesses. They are making it open to all. As our British Bureau and Public Association Charter is, you know, we want to attract the best talent into our industry. Why? Because it will make our businesses better. It will help us bring in new customers and new demographics.

45:46.46
Emma McClarkin
it will demonstrate that we are a modern, forward-looking industry. And that is something that only happens when you put the the best and brightest people around the table together.

45:57.42
Phil Street
Here, here. Amen to that for sure. um Final question, I suppose, um ah which is actually just completely gone out my head. ah What was the final question? Oh yeah, of course. and The future. what's ah You've obviously you've spoken about a couple of things that, you know, you there are always the challenges of the day that you have to address on behalf of your members and and all of that stuff, but what what's ah what's in the future for um the BBPA at this point in time?

46:28.90
Emma McClarkin
Oh, for the BBPA, are we still growing in numbers, which is great. So we've got more people coming in already this this year, more stories, more material um for us to use when we're lobbying. So that's really important. Obviously, we've got the spring statement coming up, which is critical to see whether the Chancellor uses that opportunity. And then we've got the full budget again in October. Ultimately, we really need business rates.

46:54.55
Emma McClarkin
reform and one that's deep and meaningful for the pop sector that rebalances the unfair taxation that they've been under, recognises them at the heart of their communities and support the business model going forward. So that's absolutely our number one priority this year and making sure that we are creating the right environment for them to thrive. um And that is a big job. It's a big task. And so so we're looking forward to to to championing the sector.

47:22.98
Emma McClarkin
and making sure that other priorities like sustainability and diversity don't fall off the dial at the same time and that we can keep being at the heart of the of the community and and the high street. It's so important to fabric of this country that we have a thriving beer and pub sector and hopefully we'll have some fun along the way as well.

47:42.35
Emma McClarkin
Let's not forget the fun side of things, you know, we are as a sector, there is hope out there.

47:44.02
Phil Street
Yeah. yeah

47:48.22
Emma McClarkin
There are consumers that want to come into our venues, have a great time and drink great beers. And that is something that's hopefully not going to change as long as the government supports us in providing that that space for people in their communities.

48:03.55
Phil Street
here here That strikes me as a wonderful way to wrap up our chat. I massively appreciate your time today in the midst of everything that you've got to get your head into at the moment. um Wish you guys all the very best and anything this humble little show can do to support we are right with you.

48:21.47
Emma McClarkin
thanks Thanks for letting me tell my story.

48:23.77
Phil Street
No problem at all. Have a good day.